A frequent visitor here posted a ridiculous anti-libertarian screed he had dragged out of the sewers of Left Blogistan. It was rife with MSLSD-style soft-headed thinking and false dilemmas.
The hero worshipers on the left can't stand the though of people running their own lives and they are continually pining and sighing for a Strong Man to deliver us from ourselves.
Here are a few snippets from the missive...
Libertarianism respects the rights of others
The author goes on to completely mischaracterize the libertarian understanding of rights. I won't repeat it, it's too muddled and I don't want to spread the infection. Instead, here's a load of quacking twaddle about a mythical libertarian workplace:
Brilliant libertarian thinker Tibor Machan explains it best, enunciating his first two tenets of libertarianism:
I guess he doesn't realize that the modern state uses these exact forms of covert coersion, but since its a government strong man doing it, it's OK. He lists a litany of supposed sins that would happen in his theoretical libertarian world, but ignores the fact that the governments we have now bully us, discriminate, include and exclude based upon officially-sanctioned categories, and picks winners and losers.
So, to sum up the left's position, it's OK when done to us by a big, giant conglomerate with "Government" stamped on its side, but not when freely-self-chosen groups of free people do it. Has he even been in a bowling league or a shooting club?
Here are a few snippets from the missive...
"In a perfect libertarian world, it is therefore possible for rich people to buy all the beaches and charge admission fees to whomever they want (or simply ban anyone they choose). In a libertarian world, a self-organized cartel of white people can, under certain conditions, get together and effectively prohibit black people from being able to go out to dinner in their own cityYes, but they would have to buy the property from somebody first. And in a perfect libertarian world, black people, muslims, or one-legged German immigrants could do the same thing. Imagine that. Free people exercising use of their property free from government interference...
Libertarianism respects the rights of others
The author goes on to completely mischaracterize the libertarian understanding of rights. I won't repeat it, it's too muddled and I don't want to spread the infection. Instead, here's a load of quacking twaddle about a mythical libertarian workplace:
In a libertarian world, a corporate boss can use the threat of unemployment to force you into accepting unsafe working conditions.A basic libertarian tenet states that you may not harm others or their property. Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of you neighbor's nose. Therefore, a boss may not harm another, and if the dangerous conditions in his factory harm you, you have legal recourse for restitution.
Brilliant libertarian thinker Tibor Machan explains it best, enunciating his first two tenets of libertarianism:
1. Adult human beings (and children derivatively and with proper adjustments) are sovereign over their lives, actions, and belongings. They have rights, among others, to life, liberty, and property.
2. Human beings have the responsibility in their communities to respect and act in recognition of this fact when dealing with others.
Unions are compatible with Libertarianism
But let's take is a step further and imagine that to avoid liability, the boss says you must provide your own scaffolding and other expensive safety equipment. That way, if there's a collapse or mishap due to safety gear, it's not his fault. It's too expensive to buy on your own, so maybe you could form a union or a coop to collectively buy such expensive equipment. Further, that union could retain lawyers to press cases of labor law violations. Yes, under a libertarian system that respects the rule of law, a worker can defend his rights without rent-seeking labor advocates infesting our governments.
Imagine that! A libertarian world has a place for labor unions and professional guilds. Not the rent-seeking unions that attach themselves to governments like leeches, but real human collectives that encourage like-minded people to voluntarily band together for the good of all in the group.
The silly little screed also ignores the free market for labor. A business that treats people like crap will have a harder time attracting workers than one who treats people better. History and human experience show that monopolies cannot exist indefinitely in a society that respects the rule of law and punishes violators
The writer then whines about the libertarian concept of a limited government...
Imagine that! A libertarian world has a place for labor unions and professional guilds. Not the rent-seeking unions that attach themselves to governments like leeches, but real human collectives that encourage like-minded people to voluntarily band together for the good of all in the group.
The silly little screed also ignores the free market for labor. A business that treats people like crap will have a harder time attracting workers than one who treats people better. History and human experience show that monopolies cannot exist indefinitely in a society that respects the rule of law and punishes violators
The writer then whines about the libertarian concept of a limited government...
But they didn't extend the principle to covertly violent, semi-violent, or nonviolent forms of coercion.Bullying? Government has unleashed legions of bullies
I guess he doesn't realize that the modern state uses these exact forms of covert coersion, but since its a government strong man doing it, it's OK. He lists a litany of supposed sins that would happen in his theoretical libertarian world, but ignores the fact that the governments we have now bully us, discriminate, include and exclude based upon officially-sanctioned categories, and picks winners and losers.
So, to sum up the left's position, it's OK when done to us by a big, giant conglomerate with "Government" stamped on its side, but not when freely-self-chosen groups of free people do it. Has he even been in a bowling league or a shooting club?
The quacking crayon wielder who scrawled this on my wall ended by saying, "Wish I knew the author." Me too, so we could all point and laugh at his colossal ignorance.
Can Mutually Beneficial Exchanges be Exploitative?
Can Mutually Beneficial Exchanges be Exploitative?
Well done, Kurt. We would all do good to read and abide by the guidelines you have laid out.
ReplyDeleteSilverfiddle,
ReplyDeleteHave you read Mark Levin's Ameritopia? I think that the book would support your statement: So, to sum up the left's position, it's OK when done to us by a big, giant conglomerate with "Government" stamped on its side, but not when freely-self-chosen groups of free people do it.
Kewanio che Keeteru!
ReplyDelete"ODE FOR SAINT TAMMANY, THIS DAY MAY 1787.: TAMMANY. (Balance a straw.)
"Once more on Fair Schuylkill we cheerfully meet,
Our Sachems, our warriors, our brethren to greet;
The Great King above, has allow'd us again
To bury the hatchet, and brighten the chain.
Then your hands all my sons—who for freedom have stood,
Who rescued my land at th' expense of your blood:
Such honors in hist'ry's bright annals shall shine,
And I glory to think such bold heroes are mine.
"FIRST SACHEM. Over the hills, &c.
"Our hearts and hands are always free,
To brave the storm for Tammany;
When he commands, his sons obey,
Over the hills and far away.
"Chorus.
"Over the hills, like wind we fly,
To crush the foe, or bravely die;
Our Saint's commands none disobey,
Over the hills and far away.
"De capo—the chorus, the whole.
"SECOND SACHEM. Peas upon a trencher.
"To Columbia's glory,
Recorded well in story,
We'll fill the glass,
And let it pass—
‘Confusion to each Tory. '
"Chorus repeated.
"THIRD SACHEM. Once the God of the Greeks, &c.
"Push about the brisk glass, ‘twill enliven the soul,
‘Tie the wine that absorbs all dull thinking;
E'er Cupid himself must give way to the bowl,
For his wounds are all caus'd by good-drinking.
"Chorus.
"For ‘tis wine, generous wine, that all sorrow destroys,
And route our vexations and care:
The bottle was always a fountain of joy,
That wash'd off the dregs of dispair.
"Chorus repeated.
"FOURTH SACHEM. The black rogue.
"Sing (The Mickmack dialect.) guahee honigee—honigee, makoonos,
Siskee anarichee, saturana waa;
Oroonyagh makoonos, satira nekoonos,
Sangua taverana kenan anungara.
" Chorus.
"Drink round, drink round, each sachem and brother,
Drink round, drink round, and heed what I say!
A day like this, you'll ne'er find another,
So let us be cheerful, brisk, merry and gay.
"Chorus repeated.
"TAMMANY. Vaudville-balance a straw.
"Farewell ye fair banks, and ye fresh blooming trees,
Soft scenes of rich plenty and sweet smiling ease;
Again I return to the regions above,
Add leave you my blessing, my wisdom, my love.
"Guard your rights while you live, with your swords and your guns,
And may they descend, unalloy'd to your sons!
‘While Sol on this day shall propitiously shine—
Be Peace, Independence, and Liberty—thine.
"Four last lines repeated.
" J. P."
Ah, the old Libertarian utopia.
ReplyDeleteConflicts off interest are magically resolved.
You advocate a last man standing economy by definition and don't seem to know it.
Crayon wielder? The irony is that when it comes to making decisions in your precious free market (LMFAO), I can rip strips of raw flesh of your can't cut it in the private sector butt.
... and the children in the Libertarian sandbox call left wingers utopian.
ReplyDeleteYou must be in Colorado to be close to Galt's Gulch, eh Silver?
I hear the Koch's opened one along with an amusement park near you.
Conflicts off interest are magically resolved.
ReplyDeleteKeep battling those strawmen, Ducky!
Nobody on the libertarian side said anything was perfect. There are no magic bullets, only tradeoffs.
We can summarize the history of the neo-communist movement as follows: first, divide the masses into groups. Make these groups despicable to one another. Use the hatred created progressives to further their wretched agenda: totalitarianism. If libertarianism is evil, it is because the Progressive Movement wills it so. Remember Alinsky’s rule: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
ReplyDeleteNorman Thomas predicted, “The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism,’ they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.” Apparently, it’s working.
One might argue that libertarians have too much faith in the individual; but isn't that much better than having no faith in the individual?
ReplyDeleteLibertarianism isn't evil mustang, it's just a fucking joke that has never worked and is pushed by ex-military clowns who try to justify themselves by yammering about how they protected our freedoms .
ReplyDeleteIsn't it time for the White Citizens Council meeting?
Or maybe you should actually read Alinski and quit exposing your ignorant ass.
...more quacking noise diverting attention from the subject at hand...
ReplyDeleteIs that your best shot, Ducky?
ReplyDeleteLOL ...
Hero Worship is hardly confined to the left. As Ronnie Raygun has been defied by rank and file conservatives, think-tank conservatives and every Republican running for office since 1996.
ReplyDelete"Ronnie Raygun?"
ReplyDeleteHaw Haw Haw!! I've never heard that one before!
Seriously, do you lefties literally read off of the same script?
Unlike Obama, President Reagan had real accomplishments and kicked off the longest economic boom in our nation's history, thanks to Bill Clinton being smart enough to not mess with it.
It's not worship. It's admiration for someone, unlike the bumbling Obama, who actually knows what he is doing and has real accomplishments.
excellent post, SF.
ReplyDeleteI wish more people could understand the connection between Reagan and Clinton's economy...but, alas...
Mustang, Norman Thomas would be doing the SNoopy dance were he alive and seeing the slippery slope of Socialism in America today.
You DO know that there's a public high school in NYC named after him, right? When I heard about the school, I called there, too stunned to think they'd name a PUBLIC school after him, but it is. unreal
These are the Ten Commandments by Scotland's Socialist Sunday School.
ReplyDeleteHappy May Day. :-)
1. Thou shalt inscribe on your banner: ‘Workers of all lands unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains: you have a world to win’.
2. Thou shalt not be a patriot for a patriot is an international blackleg. Your duty to yourself and your class demands that you be a citizen of the world.
3. Thou shalt not usurp the right of any man or woman, nor shall you claim for yourself any natural advantage over your fellows; for every man and woman has an equal right to an equal share in the product of their collective labour.
4. Thou shalt not take part in any bourgeois war, for all modern wars are the result of the clash of economic interests, and your duty as an internationalist is to wage class war against all such wars.
5. Thou shalt teach Revolution, for revolution means the abolition of the present Political State, and the end of Capitalism, and the raising in their place an Industrial Republic.
6. Thou shalt demand on behalf of your class, the complete surrender of the capitalist class and all the means of production, distribution and exchange, with the land and all that it contains, and by so doing you shall abolish class rule.
7. Thou shalt wage the class war, by pointing out that the history of all recorded societies is an history of the Class Struggle, and that the emancipation of the working class from wage-slavery must be brought about by themselves.
8. Thou shalt take part at all times in the political and economic struggles of the working class. Thou shalt renounce craft unionism, and work for the organisation of the working class into one vast industrial union, to take and hold the means of life.
9. Thou shalt perform a mission in society by achieving an ideal of a fuller and higher life for all, in the abolition of classes, and by the regulation of industry by the Industrial Republic, which shall end the Political State.
10. Thou shalt remember that the economic structure of Society determines the legal and political super-structure, and the Social, Ethical, Religious, and intellectual lifeprocess in general. It is not men’s consciousness which determines their life; on the contrary it is the social life which determines their consciousness.
So what did you all do for May Day?
ReplyDeleteWe had a pretty decent rally near the local high school. About 250 showed up, students, illegals, teamsters.
My film class was intending to shoot it for local public access but one of the 20 or so cops told us we needed a permit. Absolute bullshit but I tried to reason politely. He called a few of his fellows over and I told the kids to pack up.
I'm getting too old and I've had a heart attack. Past my days of getting hooked up and slammed on the squad car. Anyway, that's what these guys were looking for.
So I want to thank those ex-military fecal piles for protecting everyone's rights. It wasn't an elegant crowd and it may have given the Ladies Who Lunch the vapors. Not that any tune in to our local access channel.
Still there were some good speeches and the subject of austerity and the havoc it's raining on working people came up. The kids will remember those cops.
The struggle is eternal and if the Libertarians think it can be won by individuals well ... the lie of that insanity is what they came away with.
Trash the libertarians all you want, but it's the state you're complaining about.
ReplyDeleteI will agree with you on this:
My film class was intending to shoot it for local public access but one of the 20 or so cops told us we needed a permit. Absolute bullshit
Totally agree. Cops should leave law abiding citizens along and focus on the criminals. That's a libertarian position, btw.
"Conflicts off interest are magically resolved."
ReplyDelete"Keep battling those strawmen, Ducky!"
Ducky and Silver, as we all know, every "issue" can be a "strawman."
JMJ
as we all know, every "issue" can be a "strawman."
ReplyDeleteNo. I think you misunderstand the definition of straw man. It is a false, easily knocked down caricature of the other's argument.
Silver, I acknowledge that you would not restrict peaceful assembly or speech.
ReplyDeleteI also maintain that many who talk about protecting our freedoms only extend those rights to a particular class.
RZ: You forgot to add in "every child above average, a pot of gold for every person and clean the streets of unicorn poop."
ReplyDeleteIt was written around 1900.
ReplyDeleteBut it is true and need today as it was then.
Socialism will come before we go back to living in a log cabin, or on a plantation, which is every libertarians dream.
Ducky: "Ah, the old Libertarian utopia.
ReplyDeleteConflicts off interest are magically resolved."
As opposed to what?
Communism?
Conflicts of interest are resolved by what? A Party hack?
Socialism?
Conflicts of interest are resolved by what? Some petty bureaucrat?
Democracy?
Conflicts of interest are resolved by what? Vote?
WTF are you even talking about?
"So I want to thank those ex-military fecal piles for protecting everyone's rights."
You really know how to win friends and influence people. Sure, dump on those who would in all likelihood support your statement "so cops told us we needed a permit. Absolute bullshit"
Your just a bitter old communist, given that your idealized state has never resulted in anything other than tragedy, oppression, and genocide.
But let's give it that old college try yet one more time.
...rolls eyes
RZ: You and Ducky, fighting the strawmen...
ReplyDeleteI know plenty of libertarians who want nothing to do with log cabins, and mentioning plantations is gratuitous and insulting, as well as ignorant. Libertarians are dead set against the exploitation of others.
Were the founding fathers Libertarians?
ReplyDeleteA fascinating history of "Saint Tammany:"
ReplyDeletehttp://meeg-toomuchinformation.blogspot.com/2007/11/life-of-st-tammany.html
One of many many thousands of things I've never known before.
~ FreeThinke
No, but they had some libertarian tendencies, but they also were not anarchos since they believed in and founded a republican state. They were classical liberals, which is almost a 180 from today's liberal.
ReplyDeleteDucky, Ducky, Ducky... you just don't get it.
ReplyDelete"protecting our freedoms only extend those rights to a particular class"
CLASSES DON'T HAVE RIGHTS
PEOPLE HAVE RIGHTS
And people have equal rights. My rights are no different than your rights, are no different than a Muslims rights, no different than a Hispanics rights.
You however see certain people getting 'protected' rights.
Trample on the rights of the GM shareholder... give the value to the worker and the worker's union.
Your system is a perversion.
Where would the worker work had the investor not invested? Giant unicorns shitting manufacturing plants all over your landscape?
The investment was the result of the labor of the investor. It is no less valuable than the labor of the worker. In fact, in many cases, it was the worker that invested.
Did the investor accept risk? Yes.
Should the worker be protected from risk any more than the investor? Why?
GM tanks... and the government plays a shell game with profit, loss, debt, and assets.
The investor absorbs the loss imposed on the company by bad management & greedy unions. This ripples across the entire market, not just effecting the 1%.
The company gives management a parachute, the government gives the workers and union a handout, and everyone else gets screwed.
Is there really a difference between the right pandering to one set of special interests or the left pandering to another? Other than your personal opinion about the particular interests?
This is just one example of the state perverting the marketplace.
Management should have gotten fired.
Workers should have gotten fired.
The investors should have taken a loss.
The company should have gone bankrupt.
Equal playing field for all, consequences be damned. Otherwise your just catering to your friends and interests and screwing everyone else.
Free Market (LMFAO)
Brace yourself, Finn, Reality Zone is poised to bring up the founders owning slaves, as if we haven't been down that tired road already...
ReplyDeleteOh and what did I do for May Day?
ReplyDeleteI laughed at the idiots rioting and looting, breaking windows and stealing merchandise...
and somehow thinking they were any different than the "Man".
A business that treats people like crap will have a harder time attracting workers than one who treats people better.
ReplyDelete-----
Just ask Walmart (or Apple).
Do you guys ever stop with this nonsense.
Don't shop at Walmart... don't work at Walmart.. is it that hard of a concept to understand?
ReplyDeleteOr do you have a right to shop and work at Walmart?
I know people who work at Walmart, who are perfectly content (and no, they're not in management). I know people who worked at Walmart and who think they suck, my son for one. Same Walmart!
There are companies that I know of, that I would never work for, and have passed on... specifically because of the way they treat their employees.
I will never buy tires from my local Walmart... why? Because they are a bunch of idiots and assholes. Told my wife they couldn't sell her two different size tires, for our car that comes stock with two different size tires.
They also tried to cheat her on required maintenance on another occasion. I related both incidents to Walmart corporate.. and they can do what they want. Me? I don't buy tires or have automotive work done at Walmart.
Me, I'm fortunate enough to be able to dissassemble and assemble an engine. Caveat Emptor, I don't need nor do I want some government apperatchik looking over my shoulder while I shop.
My wife goes to Walmart for groceries, but she also goes to City Market, Safeway, Venture, Walgreens... drives me nuts balancing the checkbook, but she goes where she gets the best deal. There is an Albertson's we won't go to... because the store is dirty. Simple?
Don't own an Apple either. Why? Because I think they are overpriced and you're paying for name more than anything else.
NEXT!
Finntann: "Equal playing field for all, consequences be damned."
ReplyDeleteOh but you can't have damning consequences these days. Everyone must be sheltered from the results of their own actions. Unless of course you're successful. Then you're fair game for all sorts of derision and insult, along with demands that you redistribute the fruits of your labor to folks who sat on their ass and did nothing, and then have your taxes go to prop up your competitors who couldn't be bothered looking at the bottom line until it's too late.
All playing fields are equal but some playing fields are more equal than others. ;-)
The Left sure know how to muddle up and corrupt so many things to fit their way of thinking. It's their way or the highway. If anyone has a different and more intelligent view point, they come back with ridiculous comments that make absolutely no sense.
ReplyDeleteSilver you can't argue with zombies.
Yes, but they would have to buy the property from somebody first. And in a perfect libertarian world, black people, muslims, or one-legged German immigrants could do the same thing. Imagine that.
ReplyDeleteBAM!... bay-bee!!
That's perfect, SF. Perfect!
Grung_e_Gene said...
ReplyDeleteHero Worship is hardly confined to the left. As Ronnie Raygun has been defied by rank and file conservatives, think-tank conservatives and every Republican running for office since 1996.
Your point?
Oh, Hey!!! a Ronnie Raygun!
Excellent, just excellent!! Love to see those 80's slams get recycled by mongoloids.
Excellent!