Debate or Debacle?

Did you watch it?  What did you think?

My honest opinion?  Between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, no matter who wins, we lose. 

What was the outcome? I think The Onion captured it best in their headline:

Open-Minded Voter Waits Almost 5 Minutes Into Debate To Decide Who Won 

I think Clinton stuck to her script and it was noticeable, her performance seemed well-rehearsed which I don't necessarily think is a good thing.  I think Trump also missed a lot of wide open opportunities to score points, but I also think he stayed on message and think he has more of a chance of changing peoples minds about him than Clinton does, whether he accomplished that for the better, I don't know.

Listening to Trump's law and order speech shortly into the debate made me think of Pappy O'Daniel in O Brother Where Art Thou.

Hillary Clinton was exactly as I expected her to be... I think I'll go take a shower now. 

 

GOP Follies: Another Debate

MSNBC liveblogged the debate last night from a Ron Paul supporter’s house, with their TV coverage cutting back and forth between there and an assembled cross-section of GOP voters gathered in an upscale Michigan home to watch the debate on a big screen TV. The interaction between the two groups was entertaining at times.

The Ron Paul gathering's host was apologetic about not being in an OWS encampment, mumbling something about “pigs” and it being “freakin’ cold out there…” He and his assembled friends, a greasy-haired sloucher’s brigade in beards and t-shirts, draped over nondescript furniture in his mother’s working class home, expressed scorn for all things non-Ron Paul.

“That chubby old white haired guy looks like a mean Santa Clause who got his beard shaved off,” observed a giggly, glassy-eyed girl curled up cosily on the floor and gripping a mug of chai tea.

For reasons known only to them, they were most agitated by Romney, who reminded one stoner of the principal who expelled him from school for making out under the bleachers.

"Dude, he's like so upright and never makes a mistake. And what does he put in his hair, shellack?" said 23-year-old anti-war activist Shay Leggard.

Back at the Republican gathering, a distinguished-looking Romney supporter, nattily dressed in tan slacks, white shirt and blue blazer, impatiently dismissed the Romney criticism as "the ramblings of pot-smoking draft-dodgers."

"That's bogus, dude!" countered Leggard, spilling bong water all over his medical marijuana card, adding an emphatic "dammit," before warning reporters to clear out before his mom got home from work and "got all pissed because there's too many people in the house."

The debate itself produced some flashes of entertainment. Here are a few highlights

Ensconced behind his specially-made preacher-style lectern, which he insisted be embossed with "The Cross of Jesus," Rick Santorum elicited a self-righteous roar from the crowd of true believers by shouting unprompted,

“Like all good Americans, I worship our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!”

With a politician's sense of a winning issue, he doubled down: “Barack Hussein Obama worships a false god, a pagan idol named Gaia!”

Mitt Romney, thumbing through a Berlitz Dictionary of Conservative Words, insisted grimly that he is not a liberal.

At one point, Romney sternly intoned, “As president I will be frighteningly Reaganesque!”

Ron Paul, between spasmodically bawling “no more endless war!” urged Americans to learn how to stop worrying and to love the Iranian bomb.

Newt!  He won't crush a church in your town

Bedlam broke out when Newt Gingrich, glaring at the moderator through a seriously furrowed brow, slowly and deliberately produced a flamethrower that he had secreted behind his podium, fired it up, and incinerated the panels’ table at the left edge of the stage, catching Anderson Cooper’s slacks on fire and sending Obama’s minions scattering and clamoring for safety.

The massive fireball also briefly set the stage curtains ablaze, but they were quickly extinguished. The rabid crowd, tired of being scolded and shushed by the nannying moderators all evening, whooped and hollered for a full five minutes, raining catcalls and derisive laughter down on the cowering inquisitors.

A Gentle Answer Turneth Away Wrath

The most interesting and intelligent thread of the Year

I have read threads that are more interesting, usually in a weird or twisted way; and there are threads that contain conversation more intelligent than this one. But this thread over at Z's excellent blog, GeeeeeZ!, is an effective combination of the two, and it is a testament to Z’s always excellent topic selection and commentary as well as her patience.

What is it about Ron Paul that makes the crazy train go off the rails?

It started out on the subject of Ron Paul, and slowly degenerated into an angry, snarky shouting match, with Z having to step in to bank the fiery passions. She’s quite a moderator as well as a gracious host, proving true the passage from Proverbs about a gentle answer turning away wrath.

I could see that the thread was causing our beloved Z much anguish, but I’ve got to congratulate her for stimulating such a conversation. Beamish can be insulting, but he’s also very logical and he brings the supporting info for his arguments (which I suspect is what steams his rivals more than the insults.) I tangled with him once, but I’ve got to give the man credit. He knows how to argue his point, and other than the barbed ad-hominem, I was with him all the way on his anti-Ron Paul comments. 

Anyway, Beamish ended up insulting everyone, to the point of driving some commenters away. After some behind the scenes e-mailing between Z and some commenters, Z elicited an apology from him for turning the thread into a barroom brawl, which is no small feat. He sincerely apologized to Z without conceding the point of his argument.

A rare conversation on race that makes sense

The best part of the thread came at the end, when a liberal black man named Net Observer stepped in. I apologize for the labels. I use them only to provide a frame of reference. Mere shorthand tags do not do justice to this wise man, and although a Democrat, he says he is personally conservative, and I believe him. Go read his comments and it will all make sense. 

He said some pretty profound things about race in this country. I had heard the different pieces of his comments from various different people, but he synthesized them and stated them quite eloquently, readily offering that the thoughts were not wholly his own. He displayed a rare quality of being able to put oneself outside the debate, dispassionately analyze it, and then honestly put it back together. He is the rare person who can really see both sides, and articulate it. Go down towards the end of the thread and check out the dialog between him and Kid (a wise man himself). They are decidedly not the cowards that Eric Holder referred to.

Net Observer points out that it is not damning to incidentally share some non-racist views with people who are racist:

Whenever I talk about conservatives sharing common ground with white racialists on various race-based issues, you and other decent conservatives take strong offense. For the record, I don't blame you for taking offense. Frankly, I like the fact that you DO, because it so underlines your seriousness about the ugliness of racial prejudice.

To whites who ask why President Obama, or responsible black men like himself do not straighten out the gangbanger black youth, Net Observer says…

What if said to you, "Z, what are YOU and the other good conservatives doing about those white racialists you share common ground with? Why don't you guys speak out against it more?"

If I did that, ultimately, I think I would be placing an unfair burden on you. Because pragmatically, there's not a whole lot you can do about some independent white racialists having a few conservative opinions. Bottom line, despite the similarities, you have no real connection to those guys.

And like most blacks, I don't have any real connection to those lawless, prison-bound idiots whose skin looks like mine.

He nails the issue here, but does not damn white people with his comments; he is just describing what he sees and hears. It is an excellent explanation...

But the conflicts between blacks and conservatives are mostly based around not the basic facts, but a lack of trust. African-Americans are solid Democrats; which means they lean left. Conservatives don't trust the left.

Conversely, conservatives, unfortunately, share common ground with racialists and racists on issues like immigration, profiling, etc. So, from the point of view of a left-leaning black guy, conservatives look kinda racist.

There are some lessons in all of this... 

First, Z did not respond in kind, but kept her head and calmed things down without resorting to wielding a censorious meat ax. Beamish, although enjoying an extraordinary gift for debating and being in possession of the facts, turns people off with his pin-prickish manner. Finally, a black, liberal Obama voter shows up and displays a cultural insight, eloquence and understanding that are so rare nowadays, and conservatives warm to him.

It was an excellent dialog between Net Observer and Kid, full of Socratic intelligence, candor and goodwill, and Z is to be congratulated for hosting such a forum, even if it does at times cause her to become distraught.

Comment Thread – Geeeez: Uncle Onyango and Ron Paul