Ecclectic... I hop that THAT doesn't mean that you can't appreciate Zucchero and a contrast between the sacred and the profane (classically trained vs. belted voice).
Expectations. No one expects a blind man to be able to so anything other than collect "alms".... neglecting the fact that the man isn't required to sing AND "act" as "other" REAL tenors are. I suppose that this double standard is likely a reflective form of our decadent "pity".... for we should properly judge him as a tenor in BOTH area's, sound quality AND acting ability before equating him with other tenors. In other words, the double standard that allows us to shower him in our "pity" makes us feel better about ourselves.... but it IS STILL a DOUBLE standard. We make "allowances" and THIS makes us "feel" good about ourselves. Like buying "Starbucks" coffee for the "good" it does for indigenous coffee growers.
Interesting response. Thank you. I partially disagree. I ha[pen to know a great deal about classical music, and theater music as well. Many of the greatest opera singers of the past were known and loved primarily for the extraordinary quality of their voices and the musical understanding with which they infused their singing. As thespians or "stage personalities"performing in a straight play or musical omedy most of them would have failed miserably.
Ironically it's been just the other way 'round in the word of musical theater, where "looks," "charm," and "personality" carry much more weight than a distinguished, well-trained voice.
Singers who specialize in Song Recitals and who act as soloists in great orchestral works and oratorios, need phenomenal vocal gifts combined with great personal warmth and an almost uncanny ability to enable the audience to empathize with the meaning of the text, which is infused in every note and phrase of a great composition.
Your argument doesn't work with a performer like Thomas Quasthoff, who was born with dwarf syndrome coupled with underdeveloped arms that closely resemble flippers. All that fades into the background, however, whenever Quasthoff opens his mouth and begins to sing. In addition to his obvious "disabilities" Thomas Quasthoff just happens to be one of the greatest lyric baritones in the business. He sings regularly with the great orchestras of the world, and is favored by many of the world's finest conductors. Daniel Barenboim, a protean figure in the field, and of great renown as both pianist and conductor accompanies Quasthoff in sing recitals. Their work is second to none.
Now, since Qasthoff stands less than four feet tall, has a misshapen body and limited mobility, obviously he can't perform Don Giovanni or The Flying Dutchman on stage, HOWEVER, it would be a SIN if he were not given the opportunity to RECORD the great operatic baritone roles with other great singers of the day. His TALENT is enough to overcome his affliction.
Boccelli on the other hand sings very nicely, He has a good instrument, but his work -- by internationally recognized standards in the field -- is undistinguished both musically and vocally. Ironically, if he weren't blind, I'm reasonably certain he would never have achieved his current degree of fame and popularity.
SO, with all that in mind why should it be that relatively few are aware of the excellent Thomas Quastohoff, while cheering throngs all over the world come out for Boccelli?
The answer it partly what you said, but there has to be more to it than that, and I'm darned if, despite all my knowledge, I can figure it out.
Honestly wasn't familiar with his work, but not bad. Some interesting performances with Eric Clapton. I think he sounds better when he's more traditional than those pieces where appears to be trying to emulate American pop star style.
Istill disagree, there are a LOT of great voices in the world, but very few singing freaks. Thomas Quastohoff would likely be a YouTube ONLY sensation and church choir background singer were he not a "marketable" freak. The public likes nothing so much as a freak show that doesn't "quite" make them cringe as much as Susan Boyle does. Hey, not that he's not cute and wouldn't make a great Lollipop Guild trio member... and people will "pay" for the privilege of watching Wizard of Oz re-runs.
So don't get me wrong. He is a "good" singer. But "good" singers on a planet of 6 billion aren't all that rare. Now if he could "compose" all of the works he sings, you MIGHT alter my opinion of him. But the box that the air all comes out of for his "instrument" isn't quite a full size Stradivarius. He's more on the order of a "red violin".
And as you yourself said, "Singers who specialize in Song Recitals and who act as soloists in great orchestral works and oratorios, need phenomenal vocal gifts combined with great personal warmth and an almost uncanny ability to enable the audience to empathize with the meaning of the text, which is infused in every note and phrase of a great composition."
Empathy... Sympathy... Pity. They all branch from the same "internal" root. And so separating the "text" from it's "signifier" (the vocalist) in a visually DOMINANT world would be a "bridge to far" for most casual "spectators". A "blind" taste test would be "required".
I don't know if I'd say relatively few are aware of Thomas Quastohoff. Bocelli was kind of a unique pop breakout, and many peoples first exposure to operatic singing. Far, far many more opera aficionados new of Bocelli long before he was a pop music success.
Quastohoff has had some popular commercial success with renditions of Moon River, Georgia on my Mind, and Danny Boy, but has not worked as much in the popular genre as in the classical one. I think his lack of common popularity is more a result of the genre than the performer.
As to who or what becomes a popular success, who can say... if you could, you'd become a giant in the record business. Who would have thought that the Monks of Santo Domingo de SIlos performing Gregorian Chant would hit #3 on the Billboard 200 and go triple platinum?
"there are a LOT of great voices in the world," Yes, and few are popular successes. There is little correlation between success and capability in today's entertainment market.
I think you're wrong in your assessment... one can easily characterize Thomas Quastohoff as a great baritone from just listening to him without seeing him,. He achieves in spite of his disability, not because of it.
IMO, he achieves MORE "with" it. Call it a "surplus value". It helps "distinguish" him from the others in his field in a truly "memorable" way. Else he would likely be, as many baritone's are, relatively unknown.
I'm with you and FT on that. No one is listening to Quasthoff because they feel sorry for the thalidomide baby. I wish I could set these up as a blindfold test but just close your eyes and listen. Two world class voices in anyone's book, but I'd pick Quasthoff.
Luccio Dalla isn't half bad, either, if you like "raspy" Italian singers like Zucchero. It is all rather pop, though... and raspy is pop... people find it more "authentic" than a classically trained voice.
...and its' not as if quasthoff didn't doubt himself.... When Quasthoff, crucially for his career, won the ARD international music prize in Munich in 1988, he wondered at first whether the jury were giving him the award out of pity. "But I will never forget what the jury chief told me," says Quasthoff. "He said: 'You can be absolutely sure you didn't win the competition because of your disability. If you hadn't earned it, that would be a much bigger problem for you.'" It would, the head of the jury explained, have been cruel to raise hopes and expectations that could not later be fulfilled. Quasthoff had won the prize on merit from a field of 315.
Even then, Quasthoff was not entirely reassured, but 10 years on, having performed all over the world and worked with conductors such as Claudio Abbado, Daniel Barenboim and Simon Rattle, he no longer worries about it. "I don't think people are just coming because of my disability, especially in venues such as the Wigmore Hall. This is a very special audience: they love lieder. I don't think they are coming for the sensation."
"What do you think accounts for Boccelii's popularity?"
Free Thinke explained that. And I totally agree with him.
Listen to Boccelli and then to Dietrich Fischer Dieskau interpret Mahler's or Schubert's lieders, then you'll understand the difference between one of the world's greatest voices interpreting great songs, and a very good pop singer.
Yes, although Bryn Terfel, Thomas Hampson, Nathan Gunn, Thomas Allen, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Gerard Souzay, Mack Harrel, maybe Hans Hotter and others too, of course, give equal pleasure. But it IS what you hear and not what you see that matters -- with "classical: music.
Did you know in some of the international piano competitions they've made contestants play behind a SCREEN so neither their ethnicity, their sex, nor their sex appeal -- or lack thereof -- can possibly affect the judges? A bit extreme, but it makes sense, if you take music seriously.
I hope you've had lots of success with that, Andie. Sorry the conversation swept us completely away from your point, even if it was off-topic (Pssssst! I never care about that, as long as it's kindly meant.)
Perhaps it is simply because so many can actually relate, without the knowledge of him being blind. The first time I heard a Bocelli recording, recommended by a friend I was unaware he was blind.
38 comments:
Ecclectic... I hope that doesn't mean that you can't appreciate Zucchero... in the contrast between the sacred and profane.
wtf. Comment posted then disappeared.
Let's try again...
Ecclectic... I hop that THAT doesn't mean that you can't appreciate Zucchero and a contrast between the sacred and the profane (classically trained vs. belted voice).
What do you think accounts for Boccelii's popularity?
Expectations. No one expects a blind man to be able to so anything other than collect "alms".... neglecting the fact that the man isn't required to sing AND "act" as "other" REAL tenors are. I suppose that this double standard is likely a reflective form of our decadent "pity".... for we should properly judge him as a tenor in BOTH area's, sound quality AND acting ability before equating him with other tenors. In other words, the double standard that allows us to shower him in our "pity" makes us feel better about ourselves.... but it IS STILL a DOUBLE standard. We make "allowances" and THIS makes us "feel" good about ourselves. Like buying "Starbucks" coffee for the "good" it does for indigenous coffee growers.
ala - Susan Boyle. It's the latest fad in post-modern marketing.
Today is Hobby Lobby Support day! I created a page on FB and there are thousands participating! Come shop with me you guys!
Andie
Interesting response. Thank you. I partially disagree. I ha[pen to know a great deal about classical music, and theater music as well. Many of the greatest opera singers of the past were known and loved primarily for the extraordinary quality of their voices and the musical understanding with which they infused their singing. As thespians or "stage personalities"performing in a straight play or musical omedy most of them would have failed miserably.
Ironically it's been just the other way 'round in the word of musical theater, where "looks," "charm," and "personality" carry much more weight than a distinguished, well-trained voice.
Singers who specialize in Song Recitals and who act as soloists in great orchestral works and oratorios, need phenomenal vocal gifts combined with great personal warmth and an almost uncanny ability to enable the audience to empathize with the meaning of the text, which is infused in every note and phrase of a great composition.
Your argument doesn't work with a performer like Thomas Quasthoff, who was born with dwarf syndrome coupled with underdeveloped arms that closely resemble flippers. All that fades into the background, however, whenever Quasthoff opens his mouth and begins to sing. In addition to his obvious "disabilities" Thomas Quasthoff just happens to be one of the greatest lyric baritones in the business. He sings regularly with the great orchestras of the world, and is favored by many of the world's finest conductors. Daniel Barenboim, a protean figure in the field, and of great renown as both pianist and conductor accompanies Quasthoff in sing recitals. Their work is second to none.
Now, since Qasthoff stands less than four feet tall, has a misshapen body and limited mobility, obviously he can't perform Don Giovanni or The Flying Dutchman on stage, HOWEVER, it would be a SIN if he were not given the opportunity to RECORD the great operatic baritone roles with other great singers of the day. His TALENT is enough to overcome his affliction.
Boccelli on the other hand sings very nicely, He has a good instrument, but his work -- by internationally recognized standards in the field -- is undistinguished both musically and vocally. Ironically, if he weren't blind, I'm reasonably certain he would never have achieved his current degree of fame and popularity.
SO, with all that in mind why should it be that relatively few are aware of the excellent Thomas Quastohoff, while cheering throngs all over the world come out for Boccelli?
The answer it partly what you said, but there has to be more to it than that, and I'm darned if, despite all my knowledge, I can figure it out.
Honestly wasn't familiar with his work, but not bad. Some interesting performances with Eric Clapton. I think he sounds better when he's more traditional than those pieces where appears to be trying to emulate American pop star style.
Cheers! and thanks for the link.
Istill disagree, there are a LOT of great voices in the world, but very few singing freaks. Thomas Quastohoff would likely be a YouTube ONLY sensation and church choir background singer were he not a "marketable" freak. The public likes nothing so much as a freak show that doesn't "quite" make them cringe as much as Susan Boyle does. Hey, not that he's not cute and wouldn't make a great Lollipop Guild trio member... and people will "pay" for the privilege of watching Wizard of Oz re-runs.
So don't get me wrong. He is a "good" singer. But "good" singers on a planet of 6 billion aren't all that rare. Now if he could "compose" all of the works he sings, you MIGHT alter my opinion of him. But the box that the air all comes out of for his "instrument" isn't quite a full size Stradivarius. He's more on the order of a "red violin".
And as you yourself said, "Singers who specialize in Song Recitals and who act as soloists in great orchestral works and oratorios, need phenomenal vocal gifts combined with great personal warmth and an almost uncanny ability to enable the audience to empathize with the meaning of the text, which is infused in every note and phrase of a great composition."
Empathy... Sympathy... Pity. They all branch from the same "internal" root. And so separating the "text" from it's "signifier" (the vocalist) in a visually DOMINANT world would be a "bridge to far" for most casual "spectators". A "blind" taste test would be "required".
btw - If Bocelli were physically "uglier", I doubt that his vocal achievements would likely EVER have seen the light of day. Call me cynical.
I don't know if I'd say relatively few are aware of Thomas Quastohoff. Bocelli was kind of a unique pop breakout, and many peoples first exposure to operatic singing. Far, far many more opera aficionados new of Bocelli long before he was a pop music success.
Quastohoff has had some popular commercial success with renditions of Moon River, Georgia on my Mind, and Danny Boy, but has not worked as much in the popular genre as in the classical one. I think his lack of common popularity is more a result of the genre than the performer.
As to who or what becomes a popular success, who can say... if you could, you'd become a giant in the record business. Who would have thought that the Monks of Santo Domingo de SIlos performing Gregorian Chant would hit #3 on the Billboard 200 and go triple platinum?
"there are a LOT of great voices in the world," Yes, and few are popular successes. There is little correlation between success and capability in today's entertainment market.
I think you're wrong in your assessment... one can easily characterize Thomas Quastohoff as a great baritone from just listening to him without seeing him,. He achieves in spite of his disability, not because of it.
IMO, he achieves MORE "with" it. Call it a "surplus value". It helps "distinguish" him from the others in his field in a truly "memorable" way. Else he would likely be, as many baritone's are, relatively unknown.
I'm with you and FT on that. No one is listening to Quasthoff because they feel sorry for the thalidomide baby. I wish I could set these up as a blindfold test but just close your eyes and listen. Two world class voices in anyone's book, but I'd pick Quasthoff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACDt1e1EWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PFurPyMYfk
I'm still trying to figure out what accounts for Josh Groban's.
Luccio Dalla isn't half bad, either, if you like "raspy" Italian singers like Zucchero. It is all rather pop, though... and raspy is pop... people find it more "authentic" than a classically trained voice.
...and I'd pick Johnny Cash. ;)
...because a lot of the music that came out of Johnny's mouth never would have been sung otherwise.
...and its' not as if quasthoff didn't doubt himself....
When Quasthoff, crucially for his career, won the ARD international music prize in Munich in 1988, he wondered at first whether the jury were giving him the award out of pity. "But I will never forget what the jury chief told me," says Quasthoff. "He said: 'You can be absolutely sure you didn't win the competition because of your disability. If you hadn't earned it, that would be a much bigger problem for you.'" It would, the head of the jury explained, have been cruel to raise hopes and expectations that could not later be fulfilled. Quasthoff had won the prize on merit from a field of 315.
Even then, Quasthoff was not entirely reassured, but 10 years on, having performed all over the world and worked with conductors such as Claudio Abbado, Daniel Barenboim and Simon Rattle, he no longer worries about it. "I don't think people are just coming because of my disability, especially in venues such as the Wigmore Hall. This is a very special audience: they love lieder. I don't think they are coming for the sensation."
Perhaps....
Another great bass-baritone! Finn isn't the only one with eclectic taste ;-)
Okay, you're cynical. I'm g;ad you said it first, because I've been thinking it off an on all day. :-)
Apples and oranges! Beer and Beaujolais! Thunderbird and Pouilly Fuissé. Baseballs and Shuttlecocks! Mushrooms and Truffles!
Thank you for that. In my never humble opinion you are exactly right. And good for you for knowing who Quasthoff is.
"What do you think accounts for Boccelii's popularity?"
Free Thinke explained that. And I totally agree with him.
Listen to Boccelli and then to Dietrich Fischer Dieskau interpret Mahler's or Schubert's lieders, then you'll understand the difference between one of the world's greatest voices interpreting great songs, and a very good pop singer.
Yes, although Bryn Terfel, Thomas Hampson, Nathan Gunn, Thomas Allen, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Gerard Souzay, Mack Harrel, maybe Hans Hotter and others too, of course, give equal pleasure. But it IS what you hear and not what you see that matters -- with "classical: music.
Did you know in some of the international piano competitions they've made contestants play behind a SCREEN so neither their ethnicity, their sex, nor their sex appeal -- or lack thereof -- can possibly affect the judges? A bit extreme, but it makes sense, if you take music seriously.
The world of classical music is NOT showbizz.
Who dat? (;-o
It's a very different genre.
Susan gives hope to every plain Jane with dishpan hands who watches TV. Would you take that away from the poor dears? ;-)
I hope you've had lots of success with that, Andie. Sorry the conversation swept us completely away from your point, even if it was off-topic (Pssssst! I never care about that, as long as it's kindly meant.)
It is that, and make mine the Chateauneuf du Pape. I like reds with dust on the inside of the bottle. ;-)
video killed the radio star. Sorry to inform you.
thanks for making my point.
Could Quastoff sing Ring of Fire? He'd get laughed off the stage.
...but don't just take my word for it.
and "high art" ain't NEARLY what it used to be.
I suppose I was a little giddy at the prospect of shopping! My humblest apologies!
Perhaps it is simply because so many can actually relate, without the knowledge of him being blind. The first time I heard a Bocelli recording, recommended by a friend I was unaware he was blind.
I like Pavarotti, but I prefer Bocelli.
Thank you, Ms. Shaw.
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