Thursday, June 7, 2012

Culture Matters

Along with Thomas Sowell, James Delingpole and Mark Steyn, Victor Davis Hanson is one of my favorite regular reads. This past week he contrasted Germany and Switzerland with messier places like Italy and Greece to explain why culture is important

I have developed an unscientific and haphazard — but often accurate — politically incorrect method of guessing whether a nation is likely to be perennially insolvent and wracked by corruption.
Do average passersby throw down or pick up litter? After a minor fender-bender, do drivers politely exchange information, or do they scream and yell with wild gesticulations? Is honking constant or sporadic? Are crosswalks sacrosanct? Do restaurant dinners usually start or wind down at 9 P.M.?
Can you drink tap water, or should you avoid it? Do you mostly pay what the price tag says, or are you expected to pay in untaxed cash and then haggle over the unstated cost? Are construction sites clearly marked and fenced to protect pedestrians, or do you risk walking into an open pit or getting stabbed by exposed rebar?   (Why Bonn is not Athens
I had to laugh knowingly at his observations. Been there, done that. I have fallen into an open manhole in Quito, and I did almost impale myself on a jutting piece of rebar in Iraq, although it wasn't Iraq's fault.  It was a result of our bombing.

He’s also right on about imperiled pedestrians, and honking and screaming drivers and the wild gesticulations. Ever seen a car wreck in Italy?  Or a traffic jam in Tegucigalpa?  Places that feature such amusements are basket cases.  If you've ever driven in Spain but have never almost lost your life, count yourself extremely lucky.
To put these crude stereotypes more abstractly, is civil society mostly moderate, predicated on the rule of law, and meritocratic — or is it characterized by self-indulgence, cynicism, and tribalism?
The answers to these questions do not hinge on race, money, or natural wealth, but they do involve culture and the way average people predictably live minute by minute. Again, these national habits and traditions accrued over centuries, and as much as politics or economics, they explain in part why Bonn is not Athens, and Zurich is not Naples, or for that matter why Cairo is unlike Tel Aviv or why Mexico City differs from Toronto.   (Why Bonn is not Athens 
He ends by skewering the multi-culti PC crowd:
There is one final funny thing about contemporary culture. What people say and do about it are two different things. We in the post-modern, politically correct West publicly pontificate that all cultures are just different and that to assume otherwise is pop generalization, but we privately assume that you would prefer your bank account to be in Frankfurt rather than Athens, or the tumor in your brain to be removed in London rather than Lisbon.  (Why Bonn is not Athens)
Some challenge me on my dim view of Islam and Islamic countries. I’m not a natural bigot.  I’ve seen them up close with my own two eyes. And their cultural record over the past thousand years stinks, from number of books published to a paucity of benefits bequeathed to mankind. Who would want to live in one of their bigoted, constipated countries?  I don't begrudge them their lifestyle; it's just not my cup of tea.

Some have tried to make similar observations of Latin America, but they don’t murder one another over religion. Latin America can be dangerous, but much more often it is a place of happy wild abandon, dancing, laughing and drinking, and the women are much nicer.  And Panama, that place we cruelly ruled as a colony for 100 years (according to loony lefties who've never been there), is the only Central American country where you can drink the tap water.  Coincidence?

They do engage in bribery and nepotism in Latin America, which contributes to their tragedy of the commons, so pedestrians beware!


Hack said...

Interesting observation! Try the traffic in San Jose, Costa Rica. Traffic accidents are their #2 leading cause of death across all demographics. Regarding Arab Muslims, I just can't seem to relate to a culture who wiped their ass with their bare hand!

Hack said...


Shaw Kenawe said...

"Do average passersby throw down or pick up litter? After a minor fender-bender, do drivers politely exchange information, or do they scream and yell with wild gesticulations? Is honking constant or sporadic? Are crosswalks sacrosanct? Do restaurant dinners usually start or wind down at 9 P.M.?
Can you drink tap water, or should you avoid it?"

The first three questions could be asked about any large, populous American city. Does that mean those cities will be perennially insolvent and wracked by corruption?

I live in an historic part of Boston with very high pedestrian traffic from tourists--foreign and domestic. The place looks like a trash heap after a weekend. There's no way to tell who the slobs are who litter: American visitors or foreign.

And Hanson suggests that the time people choose to have dinner is a marker of--what? Barbarism? LOL!

I must be part visigoth, since I don't like to have supper at 5 pm!

My daughter has lived in southern California for many years. I wouldn't dream of drinking the water there.

Yeah. Italy is a messy, volatile country in the big cities like Rome, Milan, Naples. But when you visit the smaller villages--not so much.

It's also true the Germans are very keen on keeping things unmessy, orderly, and uber-civilized, uber alles.

I've had the pleasure of visiting Germany and Austria and loved what both countries had to offer. If Hanson is making a point about Germany's superior-to-southern Mediterranean work ethic, some of it is valid.

I will, however, point out that in messy, volatile Italy, a center-right politician, Silvio Berlusconi, was prime minister longer than any other prime minister in Italy's post-war history. Does that have any bearing on the points Hanson is making?

Anyway, who would want to live in a world where Rome is just like Frankfurt?

Always On Watch said...

Interesting criteria in those two paragraphs in the excerpt.

I have noticed lately that all kinds of road rage and honking have broken out here in the suburbs of D.C. -- much worse than I've seen before.

Government corruption?

Frustration with this administration?


Z said...

SF "...but much more often it is a place of happy wild abandon, dancing, laughing and drinking, and the women are much nicer."
Hey, wait a minute...nicer than WHO? :-)

As you know, I've lived in France and Germany and traveled widely.

As far as a place to live, I'd take Munich over Athens ANY day of the week. Bonn over ANYWHERE in Spain. Sadly, foreigners have dirtied the streets of Germany's cities and that's not a question of "is it the people or is it the tourists?". That's a fact. Except the foreigners there aren't tourists, they've moved in and have started changing those "Streets you could eat off of" that American tourists remarked on only 25 years ago. I saw a change every time I went to Germany over the last 25 years....worse and worse. Germans? not likely.

I love my fellow Californian VDH and have had the pleasure to meet and talk with him. Shy, kind and SMART.
thanks, SF...thank God Bonn is not Athens. (tho Athens is great for a few days)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Culture consists of the adaptations to habit one must make to survive in any particular environmental habitat. There should be no wonder that the habits of desert dwellers differ from the inhabitants of mountain peaks, warm seacosts and/or bountiful plains.

A one-size-fits-all global culture would lead to vast human depopulation in the less "inhabitable" and resource limitted regions of the earth.

Silverfiddle said...

@Z: Hey, wait a minute...nicer than WHO?

It was a comparison between the Middle East and Latin America. :)

I'm with you on where I would prefer to live, although I definitely could live in Spain (as I remember it a few years back. Don't know how it would be now).

Silverfiddle said...

FJ and Shaw: I am not lamenting that we are all not the same. I am not a one-worlder!

Having not just traveled, but lived in these places, I find the differences fascinating, and I would never want to tell someone else how to live. I even say in there that I do not begrudge the Middle Easterners their culture. I am just unable to appreciate it.

I simply read the VDH piece and found myself nodding in agreement all the way through.

Ducky's here said...

Victor Davis Handjob is at it again.

Just another piece of Anglo white bread who can't deal with the hurly burly of life.

Ducky's here said...

And I'd take Florence over Bonn in a New York minute.

Ducky's here said...

why Cairo is unlike Tel Aviv


Lot more drunks and druggies in Tel Aviv.

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky ... Just another piece of anglo white bread sour shitball who hates everything and enjoys pouring out his acidic pus on the rest of us...

Ducky's here said...

Are you kidding? I love Florance.

Barcelona, Prague, Krakow, Innsbruck, Budapest ...

Ducky's here said...

er, Florence.

Anonymous said...

Yep! Culture does matter and ours is in dcline thanks to the anything goes politically correct lefturds.

Anonymous said...

Florence? Don't be absurd, Canardo.

To YOU it ought to be FIRENZE. Also Venezia, Napoli, Roma, and Milano, etc.

If you feel obliged to accept Beijing, Mumbai and Myanmar as "correct," [I most emphatically do not!], you must also start calling Florence Firenze, Munich Muenchen, Cologne Koeln, And Moscow Moskva. Germany must be Deutschland, Spain España, France must be la France, Poland must be Polska, Denmark Danmark, Sweden Sverige, Norway Norge, Finland Suomi, Switzerland die Schweiz or Suisse or Svizzera, depending on whether you are German, French or Italian Swiss, oh and we must all Ireland Eire too -- and on and on the wide world o'er.

Do you devotes of PC-Pronunciation (another regrettable and foolish phenomenon foisted on us by the left) REALLY want to deal with all of that? You SHOULD if you have any love for truth or taste for consistency in you.

~ FreeThinke

Les Carpenter said...

It is great to be a individualist. Regardless of cultural norms. Irrespective of geography, eh Shaw

Ducky's here said...

FT, Venice smells like a sewer.

Harry Lime: Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly.

He ad libbed a lot of the "ferris wheel" scene. Quite an actor.

Anonymous said...

A multitude of cultural variation and deep differences in customs, mores and religious belief may be exciting, fascinating, broadening, even inspiring -- as long as they are keep in their country or region of origin.

The Romans, despite their pagan barbarism and decadence had the right idea about one thing:

"When in Rome do as the Romans do."

OUR one inviolable rule for immigrants and long term visitors or resident aliens OUGHT to be:


Of course, the unwritten, unspoken corollary, would be "OR GET THE FUCK OUT."

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

"Venice smells like a sewer."

And what, pray tell, might that dismal assertion have to do with the issue of politically-correct spelling and pronunciation of place names?

Unless, of course, you are willing to admit that PC, itself, is a form of sewage that clogging and stinking up the process of public communication and political discourse?

~ FT

J.O.B. said...

Fiddle- I am ashamed to admit, but I have never been to Europe. Not even my Motherlands (Ireland/Scotland)
My favorite place is Cayman Islands. Housing is very affordable. I just love that place.

I loved Cabo, but very expensive there. I enjoyed Panama as well. Brazil was way cool. But if I to have a winter retirement spot. It would be Cayman.

Ducky's here said...

Of course, the unwritten, unspoken corollary, would be "OR GET THE FUCK OUT."


Does that include military advisers in South America, FT?

Ducky's here said...

... nicely done though, FT. If you peel the veneer of these screeds, especially Victor Davis Handjob's, you get down to the xenophobia and often outright bigotry.

Silverfiddle said...

Xenophobia? You mean as opposed to the self-loathing, guilty white left's autophobia?

Ducky's here said...

And what, pray tell, might that dismal assertion have to do with the issue of politically-correct spelling and pronunciation of place names?


It seemed an appropriate response to you priggish non sequitor on European pronunciation.

Finntann said...

Ducky, do you just pull a label out of a box, throw it, and see if it sticks?

I think what irritates you most is that while the article may seem xenophobic and bigoted, no matter how you cut it it is a fairly accurate accounting with a high degree of correlation to the reality of the situation.

FT... who should determine the name of a country or city? The people who live in it, or the people who don't?

And by the way it's Éire not Eire. Éire is a place, eire is a burden. ;)


Ducky's here said...

Finntann, Victor Davis Handjob makes it a point to talk about the Swiss and there ethnic uniformity.

The whole fucking scam is an anti-immigrant rant.

Silverfiddle said...

A wathist behind evwy tweeee!

Think of how boring things would be around here without the loony left chiming in...

Anonymous said...

Finntann, you don't know it -- or at least won't admit it -- but in many ways you really are a LIBERAL.

Wait till "they" start demanding that Russia names be written in the Cyrillic alphabet, Greek names in the Greek, Middle Eastern names in Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean names in "characters,"  etc., etc., etc.

People can call themselves anything they damned well please, but all the other countries have always devised names for everyone else's country that are compatible with the language spoken in whatever country may be in question -- if you can follow that awkward sequence. 

For instance, the French call us Les etats unis -- never mind the exhibitionistic use diacritics; they're not readily available, and this is conversational writing, so we can skip that nonsense. 

At any rate, it doesn't bother me in the least that the French refer to us as Les etats unis, and our North American continent as Amerique du nord I'm sure it doesn't bother them to be called "France" by Britain and by us either.

The Germans, as far as I know, have never gone to war with France over being called Allemagne, and on and on it could go far into the night, but why bother?

Some people in this country pronounce Florida as Floorda. The natives there do, but that doesn't make it right. In Texas they play the argan to accompany hymns in church. In Brooklyn New York men used to put earl in the foinaces, and women used to be concerned with the poisonal appearance.  

The POINT is that these goddam activists have taken it upon themselves to upset and unseat long established ways that each individual country or language group has chosen to refer to other places in the world, but they have not been CONSISTENT about it. Their aims in pushing this ridiculous pronunciation agenda are motivated -- like everything else initiated by the left -- as yet-another means of grabbing power and exerting THEIR will on the largest number of people possible, and that's ALL it is.

And when was the last time you made a visit to ITALIA?

Have you ever lived in Nuh-VAD-uh or was it Nuh-VAH-duh? If the dopes out there want to call it NeVADDa, it's fine by me, but to me it's always been neVAHda, and ever more shall be so. There's a town in Missouri called Nevada, but THEY pronounce it Nu-VAY-duh. So what're you going to do -- sue 'em? ;-)

Liberalism is all about forcing change on others just for the sake of being able to FORCE them to do something they would never do if left alone.

Cole Porter wrote a whimsical song about this issue:

You say ee-ther and I say eye-ther
You say nee-ther and I say ny-ther
ee-ther, eye-ther, nee-ther, ny-ther
Let's call the whole thing off

You say tomayto, I say tomahto
You eat potayto and i eat potahto
tomayto, tomahto, potayto, potahto
Let's call the whole thing off

So, if you wear pa-jamm-as and I wear pa-jah-mas
i'll wear pa-jamm-as and give up pa-jah-mas
For we know we need each other so
we better call the calling off, off
Oh, let's call the whole thing off!

You say after and I say ahfter
You say laffter and I say lahfter
after, ahfter, laffter, lahfter
Let's call the whole thing off!

You say Ha-vann-a and I say Ha-bonn-a
You eat ba-nann-a and I eat ba-nonn-a
Ha-vann-a, Ha-bonn-a, ba-nann-a, ba-nonn-a
Let's call the whole thing off@

So, if you say ersters and I say oysters
I'll eat ersters and give up oysters
for we know we need each other so we
better call the calling off, off
Oh, let's call the whole thing off!

If you want to hear it here’s a clip of Fred and Ginger singing and dancing at their best:

Anonymous said...

OOOOH!! Thilver Fiddow, I think I thee the Koo Kwux Kwan comin' uo the dwiveway.

WON, evwybody WUN!

Befaw they thtart buwning CWOTH!

~ FT

viburnum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kid said...

Good Points All SF

Finntann said...

FT... or should I call you GU

Get a sense of humor!

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks


Two can play at that game! LOL

If you're under 60 you might like this version better by some boys from Ducky's neck of the woods, They Might Be Giants:

Sláinte, diacritical marks and all!

Anonymous said...



List of Renamed Cities and Towns in Russia

(From Wikipedia)

A particularly large number of cities and towns were renamed in Russia after the October Revolution of 1917

More renamings happened during the whole history of the Soviet Union due to political reasons

in 1945, German cities around Königsberg were made part of the Kaliningrad Oblast exclave, see list of cities and towns in East Prussia

Soon after the reconquest of Southern Sakhalin in 1945, Japanese placenames were replaced with Russian ones.

Circa 1972-73, many Chinese or Chinese-sounding place names in the Russian Far East were replaced with Russian-sounding ones

in 1991, after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, renamings (often for restoration of original names) happened

In the list below sometimes the year of renaming appears in brackets after the new name.

▪ Abinsky → Abinsk (1963)
▪ Adygeysk (1969) → Teuchezhsk (1976) → Adygeysk (1992)
▪ Aksayskaya → Aksay (1957)
▪ Alexandria (1838) → Dakhovsky (1864) → Dakhovsky Posad (1874) → Sochi (1896)
▪ Alexandrovsk (1896) → Polyarny (1939)
▪ Alexandrovskaya → Alexandrovka → Alexandrovsky (1917) → Alexandrovsk-Sakhalinsky (1926)
▪ Alexandrovskoye (1860) → Alexandrovka (1926) → Krasnopartizansk (1931) → Kuybyshevka-Vostochnaya (1936) → Belogorsk (1957)
▪ Alexeyevsk (1912) → Svobodny (1917)
▪ Almetyevo → Almetyevsk
▪ Antrea → Kamennogorsk (1948)
▪ Apsheronskaya (1863) → Apsheronsk (1947)
▪ Armyansky Aul (1839) → Armavir (1848)
▪ Arzamas-16 (1946) → Kremlyov (1991) → Sarov (1995)
▪ Astapovo → Lev Tolstoy (rural locality) (1918)
▪ Balanda → Kalininsk (1962)
▪ Bashanta → Gorodovikovsk (1971)
▪ Batalpashinkaya (1804) → Batalpashinsk (1931) → Sulimov (1934) → Yezhovo-Cherkessk (1937) → Cherkessk (1939)
▪ Beloozero (862) → Belozersk (1777)
▪ Belorechenskaya (1863) → Belorechensk (1958)
▪ Beloretsk → Mezhgorye (1995)
▪ Belotsarsk (1914) → Khem-Beldyr (1918) → Kyzyl (1926)
▪ Bikinskaya → Bikin
▪ Biryuch → Budyonny → Krasnogvardeyskoye → Biryuch (2007)
▪ Bobriki → Donskoy
▪ Bobriki → Stalinogorsk (1934) → Novomoskovsk (1961)
▪ Bogdanovo → Spassk → Bednodemyanovsk (1925) → Spassk (2005)
▪ Bolokhovsky → Bolokhovo
▪ Bondyuzhsk → Mendeleyevsk
▪ Borovskaya Sloboda → Bor (1938)
▪ Beryozovskoye → Björkö → Koivisto → Primorsk, Leningrad Oblast (1948)


Anonymous said...



▪ Chegem Pervy → Chegem
▪ Chembar → Belinsky (1948)
▪ Chertanla → Novyy Uzen' (1835) → Novouzensk
▪ Chesnokovka → Novoaltaysk (1962)
▪ Chelyabinsk-40 (1945) → Chelyabinsk-65 → Ozyorsk (1994)
▪ Chelyabinsk-70 → Snezhinsk (1991)
▪ Chibyu (1929) → Ukhta (1939)
▪ Chinnay → Krasnogorsk
▪ Cranz → Zelenogradsk (1945)
▪ Darkehmen → Angerapp (1938) → Ozyorsk (1945)
▪ Dmitriyev → Dmitriyev-na-Svape → Dmitriyev
▪ Dmitrovka → Dmitrovsk → Dmitrovsk-Orlovsky → Dmitrovsk (2005)
▪ Dokshukino (1913) → Nartkala (1967)
▪ Dolgoprudny → Dirizhablstroy → Dolgoprudny
▪ Dvigatelstroy → Kaspiysk (1947)
▪ Dzerzhinsky → Sorsk (1966)
▪ Elektroperedacha → Elektrogorsk (1946)
▪ Enso (1887) → Svetogorsk (1948)
▪ Esutoru → Uglegorsk (1946)
▪ Fischhausen → Primorsk (1946)
▪ Friedland → Pravdinsk (1946)
▪ Galkino-Vrasskoye (1884) → Ochiai (1905) → Dolinsk (1946)
▪ Goly Karamysh → Baltser → Krasnoarmeysk (1942)


Anonymous said...



▪ Gorodetsk → Bezhetsk (1766)
▪ Gorodok → Zakamensk (1959)
▪ Grushyovskaya → Gornoye Grushyovskoye → Alexandrovsk-Grushyovsky → Shakhty (1921)
▪ Gukovsky → Gukovo
▪ Gumbinnen → Gusev
▪ Gundorovka → Donetsk
▪ Gzhatsk → Gagarin
▪ Heiliegenbeil → Mamonovo
▪ Heinrichswalde → Slavsk
▪ Iletskaya Zashchita → Iletsk → Iletskoye → Iletskaya Zashchita → Sol-Iletsk
▪ Iman → Dalnerechensk
▪ Insterburg → Chernyakhovsk
▪ Ivanovo-Voznesensk → Ivanovo
▪ Izhevsky Zavod → Izhevsk → Ustinov → Izhevsk
▪ Izhma → Sosnogorsk
▪ Kainsk → Kuybyshev
▪ Kalata → Kirovgrad
▪ Kaliningrad → Korolyov
▪ Kamen → Kamen-na-Obi
▪ Kamenskaya → Kamensk-Shakhtinsky
▪ Kamensky Zavod → Kamensk-Uralsky
▪ Kamyshin → Dmitriyevsk → Kamyshin
▪ Kasivabora → Severo-Kurilsk
▪ Kaspiysky → Lagan
▪ Khabarovka → Khabarovsk
▪ Kharovsky → Kharovsk
▪ Khibinogorsk → Kirovsk, Murmansk Oblast
▪ Khlynov → Vyatka → Kirov
▪ Khonto → Nevelsk
▪ Khotchino → Gatchina → Trotsk (1923) → Krasnogvardeysk (1929) → Gatchina (1944)
▪ Khrushchyovskaya → Uzlovaya
▪ Kiyskoye → Mariinsk
▪ Kodinsky → Kodinsk
▪ Kolchugino → Lenino → Leninsk-Kuznetsky


Anonymous said...



▪ Komsomolsky → Yugorsk
▪ Korela → Keksgolm → Priozyorsk
▪ Korsakovsky Post → Otomari → Korsakov
▪ Kozlov → Michurinsk
▪ Königsberg → Kaliningrad
▪ Krasnaya Sloboda → Krasnoslobodsk
▪ Krasnoflotsky → Krasnoarmeysky → Krasnoarmeysk
▪ Krasnoyarsk-26 → Zheleznogorsk
▪ Kremlyov → Sarov
▪ Krestov Brod → Roshal
▪ Kseniyevsky → Asino
▪ Kudelka → Asbest
▪ Kukarka → Sovetsk
▪ Kurgannaya → Kurganinsk
▪ Kushvinsky Zavod → Kushva
▪ Kuznetsk → Novokuznetsk → Stalinsk → Novokuznetsk
▪ Kuznetsovo → Konakovo
▪ Labiau → Polessk
▪ Labinskaya → Labinsk
▪ Lakinsky → Lakinsk
▪ Laptevo → Yasnogorsk
▪ Lazdinay → Lazdenen → Krasnoznamensk
▪ Lermontovsky → Lermontov
▪ Likhvin → Chekalin
▪ Lopasnya → Chyornoye Ozero → Chekhov
▪ Losinaya Sloboda → Losino-Petrovsky
▪ Lyantorsky → Lyantor
▪ Lyutoga → Rudaka → Aniva
▪ Maoka (Mauka) → Kholmsk
▪ Mechetnaya → Nikolayevsk → Pugachyov
▪ Medvezhyya Gora → Medvezhyegorsk
▪ Melekess → Dimitrovgrad
▪ Mikhaylovskoye → Shpakovskoye → Mikhaylovsk
▪ Mikhaylovsky Zavod → Mikhaylovsk
▪ Mikoyan-Shakhar → Klukhori → Karachayevsk
▪ Mukhtuya → Lensk
▪ Muravlenkovsky → Muravlenko
▪ Mysovaya → Mysovsk → Babushkin


Anonymous said...



▪ Naberezhnye Chelny → Brezhnev → Naberezhnye Chelny
▪ Nadezhdinsk → Kabakovsk → Nadezhdinsk → Serov
▪ Naykhoro → Gornozavodsk
▪ Nazyvayevskaya → Nazyvayevka → Nazyvayevsk
▪ Neuhausen → Guryevsk
▪ Nevdubstroy → Kirovsk
▪ Nevyansky Zavod → Nevyansk
▪ Nezametny → Aldan
▪ Nikolayevsky → Nikolayevsk → Nikolayevsk-na-Amure
▪ Nikolo-Pestrovka → Nikolo-Pestrovsky → Nikolsk
▪ Nikolskoye → Nikolsk → Nikolsk-Ussuriysky → Voroshilov → Ussuriysk
▪ Nikolsky Khutor → Sursk
▪ Nizhnetagilsky Zavod → Nizhny Tagil
▪ Nizhnevartovsky → Nizhnevartovsk
▪ Nizhnevolzhsk → Narimanov
▪ Nizhny Novgorod → Gorky → Nizhny Novgorod
▪ Noda → Chekhov → Chekhovo (2004)
▪ Nolinsk → Molotovsk → Nolinsk
▪ Novaya Derevnya → Alexandrovsky → Novonikolayevsky → Novonikolayevsk → Novosibirsk
▪ Novaya Pokrovka → Svoboda (1943) → Liski → Georgiu-Dezh (1965) → Liski (1990)
▪ Novgorod → Veliky Novgorod (1998)
▪ Novo-Mariinsk → Anadyr
▪ Novoalexandrovskaya → Novoalexandrovsk
▪ Novokuybyshevsky → Novokuybyshevsk
▪ Novonikolayevsk → Novosibirsk
▪ Novopavlovskaya → Novopavlovsk
▪ Novotroitsk → Baley
▪ Novovoronezhsky → Novovoronezh
▪ Novy Zay → Zainsk
▪ Novyye Petushki → Petushki
▪ Nyakh → Nyagan
▪ Obdorsk → Salekhard
▪ Olensk → Vilyuysk
▪ Olkhovsky → Artyomovsk
▪ Olzheras → Mezhdurechensk
▪ Omutninsky Zavod → Omutninsk
▪ Oraniyenbaum → Lomonosov
▪ Orenburg → Chkalov → Orenburg
▪ Oreshek → Nöteborg → Shlisselburg → Petrokrepost → Shlisselburg
▪ Orlov → Khalturin → Orlov
▪ Osinovka → Osinniki
▪ Ostyako-Vogulsk → Khanty-Mansiysk


Anonymous said...



▪ Pavlovo → Pavlovsky Posad
▪ Pavlovsk → Slutsk → Pavlovsk
▪ Pechory → Petseri → Pechory
▪ Pereyaslavl-Ryazansky → Ryazan
▪ Perm → Molotov → Perm
▪ Permskoye → Komsomolsk-na-Amure
▪ Pervomaysky → Novodvinsk
▪ Pesochnya → Kirov
▪ Peterhof → Petrodvorets → Petergof
▪ Petropavlovsky → Petropavlovsky Port → Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky
▪ Petropavlovsky → Severouralsk
▪ Petrovskoye → Petrovsk-Port → Makhachkala
▪ Petrovskoye → Svetlograd
▪ Petrovsky Zavod → Petrovsk-Zabaykalsky
▪ Pillau → Baltiysk
▪ Pokrovskaya → Pokrovsk → Engels
▪ Pokrovskoye → Pokrovsk
▪ Porechye → Demidov
▪ Poshekhonye → Poshekhonye-Volodarsk → Poshekhonye
▪ Prishib → Leninsk
▪ Protva → Zhukov
▪ Pryoysish-Elau → Bagrationovsk
▪ Pyora → Gondatti → Vladimiro-Shimanovsky → Shimanovsk
▪ Raduga → Vladimir-30 → Raduzhny
▪ Ragnit → Neman
▪ Ranenburg → Chaplygin
▪ Rastyapino → Dzerzhinsk
▪ Rauschen → Svetlogorsk
▪ Raychikha → Raychikhinsk
▪ Romanov-Borisoglebsk → Tutayev
▪ Romanov-na-Murmane → Murmansk (1917)
▪ Romanovsky → Kropotkin


Anonymous said...



▪ Saint Petersburg (1703) → Petrograd (1914) → Leningrad (1924) → Saint Petersburg (Sankt-Peterburg) (1991)
▪ Samara → Kuybyshev → Samara
▪ Selyutora → Siritoru → Makarov
▪ Semyonovka → Arsenyev
▪ Serdobol → Sortavala
▪ Sereda → Furmanov
▪ Sergiyev Posad → Sergiyev → Zagorsk → Sergiyev Posad
▪ Sergiyevskoye → Plavsk
▪ Shakhty → Gusinoozyorsk
▪ Sharypovskoye → Sharypovo → Chernenko → Sharypovo
▪ Shcheglovo → Shcheglovsk → Kemerovo
▪ Shikhrany → Kanash
▪ Shkotovo-17 → Tikhookeansky → Fokino
▪ Sieklakhti → Lakhdenpokhya
▪ Simbirsk → Ulyanovsk
▪ Skalisty → Gadzhiyevo
▪ Slavyanskaya → Slavyansk-na-Kubani
▪ Solnechnogorsky → Solnechnogorsk
▪ Sorochinskoye → Sorochinsk
▪ Spassk → Spassk-Tatarsky → Kuybyshev → Bolgar, Russia
▪ Spasskoye → Spassk → Spassk-Dalny
▪ Spasskoye → Spassk → Spassk-Ryazansky
▪ Stakhanovo → Zhukovsky
▪ Stallupönen → Nesterov
▪ Stary Rogozhsky Yam → Bogorodsk → Noginsk
▪ Stavropol → Togliatti
▪ Stavropol → Voroshilovsk → Stavropol
▪ Stupinskaya → Elektrovoz → Stupino
▪ Suchansky Rudnik → Suchan → Partizansk
▪ Sudostroy → Molotovsk → Severodvinsk
▪ Sundyr → Mariinsky Posad
▪ Suyetikha → Biryusinsk
▪ Sverdlovsk-45 → Lesnoy
▪ Svoboda → Liski → Georgiu-Dey → Liski
▪ Svobodny → Cherepanovo
▪ Svyatoy Krest → Prikumsk → Budyonnovsk → Prikumsk → Budyonnovsk
▪ Syana → Kurilsk
▪ Sysertsky Zavod → Sysert
▪ Taldom → Leninsk → Taldom
▪ Tapiau → Gvardeysk
▪ Tashino → Pervomaysk
▪ Temir-Khan-Shura → Buynaksk
▪ Terijoki → Zelenogorsk
▪ Tetyukhe → Dalnegorsk
▪ Tikhmenevsky → Sikuka → Poronaysk
▪ Tikhoretskaya → Tikhoretsk
▪ Tilsit → Sovetsk
▪ Tomarioru → Tomari
▪ Tomsk-7 → Seversk
▪ Toro → Shakhtyorsk
▪ Troitsa → Udomlya
▪ Troitsko-Zaozyornoye → Zaozyorny
▪ Troitskosavsk → Kyakhta
▪ Troitskoye → Troitsky → Troitsk
▪ Trongzund → Uuras → Trongzund → Vysotsk
▪ Trotsk → Chapayevsk
▪ Truyevo-Naryshkino → Kuznetsk
▪ Tsaritsyn → Stalingrad → Volgograd
▪ Tsarskoye Selo → Detskoye Selo → Pushkin
▪ Tsaryovokokshaysk → Krasnokokshaysk → Yoshkar-Ola
▪ Tsimlyanskaya → Tsimlyansk
▪ Turyinsky → Krasnoturyinsk
▪ Tver → Kalinin → Tver
▪ Tyndinsky → Tynda
▪ Udinsk → Verhneudinsk → Ulan-Ude
▪ Ulala → Oyrot-Tura → Gorno-Altaysk
▪ Uralmedstroy → Krasnouralsk
▪ Usolye → Usolye-Sibirskoye
▪ Ust-Abakanskoye → Khakassk → Abakan
▪ Ust-Belokalitvenskaya → Belaya Kalitva
▪ Ust-Katavsky Zavod → Ust-Katav
▪ Ust-Medveditskaya → Serafimovich'
▪ Ust-Sheksna → Rybansk → Rybnaya Sloboda → Rybnoy → Rybinsk → Shcherbakov → Rybinsk → Andropov → Rybinsk
▪ Ust Zeysky military post → Blagoveshchensk
▪ Vasilyovo → Chkalovsk
▪ Vayenga → Severomorsk
▪ Velikoknyazheskaya → Proletarskaya → Proletarsk
▪ Velyaminovsky → Tuapse
▪ Verkhneudinsky → Verkhneudinsk → Ulan-Ude
▪ Vinodelnoye → Ipatovo
▪ Vladikavkaz → Ordzhonikidze → Dzaudzhikau → Ordzhonikidze → Vladikavkaz
▪ Vladimirovka → Toyokhara → Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk
▪ Volkhovstroy → Volkhov (1940)
▪ Volodary → Volodarsk
▪ Vorontsovo-Alexandrovskoye → Sovetskoye → Zelenokumsk
▪ Voskresenskoye → Voskresensk → Istra (not to be confused with another Voskresensk)
▪ Voznesenskaya → Vereshchagino
▪ Vyborg → Viipuri → Vyborg
▪ Vyzhaikha → Krasnovishersk
▪ Yakovlevskoye → Privolzhsk
▪ Yama → Yamsky Gorodok → Yama → Yamburg → Kingisepp (1922)
▪ Yauntlatgale → Abrene → Pytalovo
▪ Yegorshino → Artyomovsky
▪ Yekaterinburg → Sverdlovsk → Yekaterinburg
▪ Yekaterinodar → Krasnodar
▪ Yekaterinenstadt (Baronsk) → Marxstadt → Marks
▪ Yuryuzansky Zavod → Yuryuzan
▪ Zaozyorny-13 → Krasnoyarsk-45 → Zelenogorsk (1992)
▪ Zarinskaya → Zarinsk
▪ Zatishye → Elektrostal
▪ Zavolzhye → Zavolzhsk
▪ Zavoyko → Yelizovo
▪ Zernovoy → Zernograd
▪ Zeysky Sklad → Zeya-Pristan → Zeya
▪ Zhdanovsk → Zapolyarny
▪ Zheleznodorozhny → Yemva
▪ Zhirnoye → Zhirnovsky → Zhirnovsk
▪ Zimmerbude → Svetly
▪ Zlatoust-36 → Tryokhgorny
▪ Zmeiny → Never-1 → Rukhlovo → Skovorodino


Anonymous said...



See also
▪ List of inhabited localities in Kaliningrad Oblast, with former names from East Prussia (list)
▪ List of places named after Lenin
▪ List of places named after Stalin
▪ List of renamed cities in Armenia
▪ List of renamed cities in Azerbaijan
▪ List of renamed cities in Belarus
▪ List of renamed cities in Estonia
▪ List of renamed cities in Georgia
▪ List of renamed cities in Kazakhstan
▪ List of renamed cities in Kyrgyzstan
▪ List of renamed cities in Latvia
▪ List of renamed cities in Lithuania
▪ List of renamed cities in Moldova
▪ List of renamed cities in Tajikistan
▪ List of renamed cities in Turkmenistan
▪ List of renamed cities in Uzbekistan
▪ List of renamed cities in Ukraine

Respectfully submitted by FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

Oh, and by the way:

I have yet to see a single Chinese Restaurant in the USA -- and I have visited many, because I love Chinese food -- feature BEIJING DUCK on its menu.

And while we're at it, why isn't that new pronunciation spelled phonetically?

BAYJING would make a lot more sense.

If our current "Dear Leader" gets a second term (God forbid!), I imagine we can all look forward to Washington, DC, being renamed BARACKISTAN, NWO.


They're in the business of DISORIENTING people.

If that were not so, why are we now expected to call ORIENTALS ASIANS?

And you say I have no sense of humor!


~ FreeThinke

Silverfiddle said...

Well... This thread is dead...

Anonymous said...


Take Me Back to Constantinople was my favorite song -- when I was FOUR.

And should it be pronounced ISS-TAN-BULL, or ISS-TAN-BOOL?

Every bit of it is BULL as far as I'm concerned.

However the Constantinople phenomenon is not quite the same issue as the tactics employed by Communist Revolutionaries listed in morbid and stupefying detail above.

They're trying to do it to us. It started, apparently, with the forced change from Peking or Peiping to Beijing. If the process remans unchecked, we will wind up completely cut off from our own past, and have no idea who we were, who we are or who we're supposed to be.

Do we really want to go the way of the Aztecs, the Incas and the Mayans?

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

"Well... This thread is dead..."

Ya really think so?

For me it's still very much alive, my friend.

Whether you recognize it or not, I've just made a great point. Perhaps a little too thoroughly ;-), but a great point, nevertheless.

I don't know about you, but I for one do not want to see what happened to Russia in 1917 happen to OUR country.

We are not being conquered by machine gun fire and bomb-throwing, but we ARE being rotted out from within by Judicial Activism on the part of Marx-inspired judges, and by colleges professors and "newscasters" of that same ilk.

This forced alteration of nomenclature and this pronunciation thing is PART of the process. I resent it, and I shall continue to fight it and rail against it till I drop dead.

Good morning! ;-)

~ FT

Always On Watch said...

Why might this thread be dead?

I missed all the action here yesterday as Mr. AOW and an emergency dental appointment. All is well now -- except that he's minus one tooth.

I'll go back through the thread now and see what's been going on.

Always On Watch said...

Ah, changed nomenclature.

Let's see....In my lifetime, in official and polite company, blacks have been referred to as Negroes, coloreds, blacks, and, now African-Americans. I have a problem using that last one.

And then we have by their individual tribe names ("He's Cherokee," for example), American Indians referred to as Redskins, Indians, and, now, Native Americans. I myself tend to use the tribe name if I know it. For example, I sometimes refer to Warren as "my Cherokee friend"; above all, Warren, a staunch patriot in Indiana, is an American.

In my view, "Asian" is a general term just as "Oriental" is. Do the Orientals themselves care if we call them either "Asian" or "Oriental"? Not to my knowledge -- although I tend to refer to such individuals whom I personally know as "Chinese," "Korean," "Japanese," "Philippino," etc.

Anonymous said...

The one change that irritates me more than all the others is the forced change to Ms.

There was never anything wrong with being either a Miss or a Mrs. It helped avoid confusion too -- back when people respected other people's marriage vows.

Today, of course ANYTHING GOES -- and ain't it a shame?

I'm all in favor of recognizing and rewarding superior intelligence, strength of character and creativity in woman, and have realized most of my conscious life that many woman are a helluva lot more capable than many men, but if I had my way, these FEMINAZIS would be lined up and machine gunned into a ditch.

I loathe and despise POWER SEEKERS. And that goes for all those bilious, Holier-Than-Thou Savonarola types too, of course.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't necessarily mean you are one any more than calling yourself a genius makes it so, when obviously you're as dumb as a doorjamb.

~ FreeThinke

Finntann said...

Sorry SF... It ain't dead yet - I couldn't resist:

Alburquerque → Albuquerque, New Mexico

Alexandria → Jackson, Tennessee

Ammansland → Darby, Pennsylvania

Atkins Bank → Kingston → Kinston → Caswell → Kinston, North Carolina

Awiehawken → Weehawken, New Jersey

Bergen → Jersey City, New Jersey

Berlin → Marne, Michigan

Beverwijck → Albany, New York

Breuckelen → Brooklyn (borough of New York City, New York)

Campbellton + Cross Creek → Fayetteville, North Carolina

Chamassungh → Finlandia → Marcus Hook, Pennsylvania

Charleston → St. Charles, Illinois

Charles Towne → Charleston, South Carolina

Clark → DISH, Texas

Cleaveland → Cleveland, Ohio

Cowford → Jacksonville, Florida

Dearborn → Chicago, Illinois

Earpville → Longview, Texas

East Detroit → Eastpointe, Michigan

Fletcher → Aurora, Colorado

Fort Casimir → Fort Trefaldighet → New Amstel → New Castle, Delaware

Fort Christina → Fort Altena → Wilmington, Delaware

Fort Duquesne → Fort Pitt → Pittsburgh → Pittsburg → Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Fort Hoop → Hartford, Connecticut

Fort Nassau → Fort Orange → Albany → Willemstad → Albany, New York

Fort Nassau → Gloucester City, New Jersey

Gay Head → Aquinnah, Massachusetts

Gamble's Mill → Shelby, Ohio

Gorbit → Kit → Irving, Texas

Great Salt Lake City → Salt Lake City, Utah

Heemstede → Hempstead, New York

Hot Springs → Truth or Consequences, New Mexico

Jernigan → Orlando, Florida

Kingston → Conwayborough → Conway, South Carolina

Lancaster → Lincoln, Nebraska

Losantiville → Cincinnati, Ohio

Marysville → Corvallis, Oregon

Mauch Chunk → Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania

Mölndal → Yeadon, Pennsylvania

New Amsterdam → New York → New Orange → New York City, New York

Neppel → Moses Lake, Washington

Northampton → Allentown, Pennsylvania

North Tarrytown → Sleepy Hollow, New York

Novoarkhangelsk → Sitka, Alaska

Nya Stockholm → Bridgeport, New Jersey

Pig’s Eye → St. Paul, Minnesota

Plantation of Penacook → Rumford → Concord, New Hampshire

Printztorp → Chester, Pennsylvania

Providence → Anne Arundel Towne → Annapolis, Maryland

Saint Petersburg Beach → St. Pete Beach, Florida

Sellstown → Dublin, Ohio

Sing Sing → Ossining, New York

Spokan Falls → Spokane, Washington

Staaten Eylandt → Staten Island (borough of New York City, New York)

Sveaborg → Swedesboro, New Jersey

Swilling's Mill → Hellinwg Mill → Mill City → East Phoenix → Phoenix, Arizona

Tequirassy → Eddystone, Pennsylvania

Terminus → Marthasville → Atlanta, Georgia

Todos Santos → Concord, California

Upland → Chester, Pennsylvania

Vermilionville → Lafayette, Louisiana

Wachau → Salem → Winston-Salem, North Carolina

Waterloo → Austin, Texas

Wineville → Mira Loma, California

Wiltwyck → Kingston, New York

Wintonbury → Bloomfield, Connecticut

Yerba Buena → San Francisco, California

Zwaanendael → Lewes, Delaware

Finntann said...

Damn Communists, how dare they rename Novoarkhangelsk to Sitka?


Anonymous said...

Very interesting, Finntann, but you're still missing the point. Having no discernible lack of brainpower I suspect you misunderstand somewhat willfully, because you are by nature a fervent Oppositionist. [If that has not been a legitimate term in the past, it is now.]

Funny! I lived in Lewes, Delaware for 23 years before I moved to my present location.

Do you know how to pronounce Lewes? Most Americans haven't a clue, and murder it routinely.

I'll give you a hint:

It does NOT rhyme with shoes, booze, cruise, or blues.

By the way, did you know that Regina, Saskatchewan was originally called Pile of Bones?

And do you know that Regina rhymes with VAGINA, and not with the name Gina?

Not to be too picky, but when the Dutch settled on the island of Mannahatta, they called it Nieuw Amsterdam not New Amsterdam.



Anonymous said...


As man of both Irish blood and temperament are you by any chance in favor of changing all the names of every place in Ireland to the old Erse-Gaelic-Irish spellings?

I once read a most amusing article on that subject, but it was years ago. I wish I could find it, and give you the link. I imagine you'd enjoy it too.

~ FT

Anonymous said...

I find this whole discussion a bit funny, especially when one considers the whole insolvent premise.

Why funny? Because American culture is pretty awful, and we've only been around for a couple hundred years. Europe is very different from America, and this guy goes to great lengths to show how "uncivilized" it is.

Oh right, the funny part. Europe has been around for a very long time, much longer than the United States.

What's also funny is that American culture is very much like that of Ancient Rome. Americans are decadent, crude, and they love violence. How long did Rome last?

And Silver, you're going to have to shorten your span of time when talking about Muslim/Arab culture's contribution to humanity. I can give you 10, yes 10, reasons that we should be thankful for Arab culture right off the bat. Ready? Here they are:


Can you imagine mathematics looking like this?


And I've mentioned this several times, that while Eropeans were throwing their feces into the streets, Arab countries had advanced sanitation. While Europeans were bloodletting, Arabs were making strides in surgery and our understanding of human anatomy.

Where did Europe look when the Renaissance came about and everyone wanted to read Plato? Oh, that's right, they looked to the Arabs who had preserved and translated all the classical texts.

So shorten your timespan to maybe 600ish years and you might have a case.

Oh, and perhaps you should research Janissaries and how they pretty much made Constantinople crumble.

Silverfiddle said...

And I've mentioned this several times, that while Eropeans were throwing their feces into the streets, Arab countries had advanced sanitation.

And now the Islamic countries are throwing heir feces in the streets while the western world enjoys modern conveniences.

Jack, I literally saw a woman washing dishes in a stream in kabul while a man was crapping upstream. That city has the highest fecal matter parts per million count of any city.

The Muslim world is in retrograde. Pull your head out of your ass and get out and see the world. I swear, you only comment to defend islam and homosexuality.

Finntann said...

I grew up in the Delaware Valley FT, I think I can manage to pronounce Lewes.

I'm not disputing the Stalinist-destalinist name changes in the former Soviet Union, just that place names change all the time, and it is not part of some vast conspiracy. Aside from the USSR, it generally isn't even politically motivated.

Take Peking-Beijing, it was never referred to as Beijing by the people who lived there. Beijing is the romanization of the Mandarin chinese "Northern Capital". Peking is the Cantonese version of the same word, why Cantonese? Because that was what was spoke in British Hong Kong.

You can pronounce it Lews Delaware out of ignorance or because someone from Ohio called it Lews, and wrote it on maps, but that doesn't make it correct, especially when everyone that lives there pronounces it Lewis.

I lived in Korea during the great place name change, Pusan-Busan, Taegu-Daegu, Kyong-ju-Gyeongju, and I can assure you, the new names a pronouned closer to the orginal Hangul than the old romanized versions.

Language is dynamic, don't take it personally.


Always On Watch said...

We routinely use the phrase "Arabic numerals," but I believe that there are conflicting theories as to the earliest origins of those numerals.

Anonymous said...

Yes Silver, my head is firmly up my ass . . .

I refuted two things. 1: That your assertion that Arab/Muslim culture hasn't contributed anything to the good of humanity in the last 1,000 years, and 2: That European culture has done nothing to make Europe insolvent, because Europe has existed for over 1,000 years (not in its current form, but you get the picture).

In anything I said, where did I defend the barbaric nature of modern Arab culture? I'll be the first one to agree that Arab culture has gone backwards, and that it stopped moving forward around the 17th century.

Since you injected arguments I didn't make into my words, allow me to do so to you. I only comment on culture because I can't stand this notion that American culture is somehow "better" than every other culture in the world. And I sure as hell can't stand it when Arab culture is lumped in with Islam. I've said this countless times before, but you don't seem to want to believe it: if the problem were with Islam, then every Muslim everywhere would be crazy and barbaric. But that's simply not the case.

Similarly, if Christianity itself was the problem, then every Christian everywhere, regardless of culture, would be like that asshat Terry Jones.

Take a good hard look at what American culture has become, and you'll see how silly it is to assert that it is somehow superior to everyone else.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Finntann,

SPONTANEOUS change occurring as the result of natural cultural evolution is fine -- it has to be. FORCED change by government edict or MANIPULATED change by seditious, mischief-making political activists in media and academia is something else.

I had no idea you were raised in the Delaware Valley. I've always thought of you as a "Westerner." I'm a native New Yorker, myself, and was raised in northern New Jersey. FYI: I do not talk with a typical NOO YAWK accent, thank God. In my day educated people took trouble to learn how to eliminate all traces of obnoxious regional dialects. I wish that were the case today. Coarse, uncouth, vulgar speech patterns grate on the nerves, especially when they come from those who hold Ivy League degrees.

Even before I arrived in Lewes, Delaware, it never would have occurred to me to pronounce it as LOSE. It made no sense. Who the hell would want to be known forever as a LOSER?

Americans have a positive genius for lousing up the pronunciation of the names of nearly everything and everyone.

It's always struck me as particularly funny that second and third generation Italian-Americans can't -- or won't -- even pronounce their own names correctly.

If you hadn't been born and raised in the vicinity, I imagine that you too might have assumed that Lewes is pronounced LOSE -- but maybe not. I've ever denied that you are a smart guy.

Interesting information about BAYJING. It's unlikely that the vast majority of Europeans and Americans would ever pronounce Asian names as Asians do no matter how those spellings are romanized. The oriental languages contain sounds that do no exist in English and the Romance languages. The same is true for many other languages as well.

Not to be tedious, but I insist it's perfectly all right for English-speaking peoples to refer to Pariss, while the French call it Paree.

That's a principle that I believe ought to apply to nomenclature the wide world o'er.

Having been blest with a musical ear I have always found this to be an absorbing subject. As I said, I only resent forced change to accommodate the dictates of political correctness dreamed up by advocates of Worldwide Socialism administered by One World Government.

And much good cheer to you too,

~ FT

Silverfiddle said...

Jack: Arabic numerals are more than a thousand years old. What have they done for us lately?

See, this is what happens when you bring preconceived notions and biases to a discussion. I was making cultural comparisons, not trumpeting our cultural superiority. I have preferences, and I expressed them. Then you come along, like a good liberal and have to bring your equivalency arguments, when this isn't even an argument about who's better than who.

Anonymous said...

Why is it always false equivalency with you?

Again, you're getting on my case for arguments that I didn't even make. I even said:

"I'll be the first one to agree that Arab culture has gone backwards, and that it stopped moving forward around the 17th century."

Did you miss that part where I agreed with you?

What ticks me off is that you seem to refuse to make the distinction between Islam and Arab culture.

And what's even more ridiculous is that you get on my case about having preconceived notions and biases. Really? Of all the people that post on here, I would hope that you'd at least consider me to be one who is objective.

I mean, don't I pretty much lambaste everyone? I point out the flaws of Democrats and Republicans, Western Culture and Eastern Culture, Christianity and Islam. All of it.

Yet you, an American and avowed Christian who has accepted Jesus as your personal savior, are going to write about how awful Arabs and Muslims are, and then accuse ME of being biased?


Silverfiddle said...

Jack: you have a way of taking something innocuous and squeezing all the fun out of it...

You want to be the flaming sword of Islam, lashing out at every perceived slight, be my guest. I just find it tiring. I happen to love Hispanic culture, and my confreres routinely put it down, usually in the context of immigration, but you don't see me lashing out at every criticism.

Anonymous said...

I don't lash out at the criticism against Muslim wackoes, just as I don't lash out at criticism against Christian wackoes.

I'm no flaming sword of Islam, but I get pretty fired up when I think something or someone is being treated unjustly.

And how have I squeezed out all the "fun" of this? Was it the whole thing about being biased? Which I still find funny. I fail to see how me, a Catholic, is somehow biased towards Islam.

Silverfiddle said...

I read Hanson's comments and, as I said in the post, found myself laughing and nodding in agreement.

He admits his observations are anecdotal, as do I. It was just a fun piece to read for anyone who has traveled or live in other places.

As Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Finntann said...

Islam is significantly influenced by Arab culture. The major difference between Christianity and Islam, at least from a 'law' perspective was the abrogation of the old Mosaic Law by the new convenant of Christ.

New Testament law was significantly influenced by both Roman and Greek civilization and philosophy. The Quran however, further codified the harsh tribal law of the desert.

I am not denying the harshness that can be found in Christian history, but for the most part the west has moved beyond that. We don't burn witches, we don't kill apostates.

Islam is firmly rooted not in the 17th century but more accurately, the 7th. The majority of modern Christianity is a product of the middle ages and renaissance. If anything the civilization of the Caliphates peaked in the 13th century and has been either stagnant or in decline since.

Today they are confronted with the modern west. It's almost as if instead of the puritans landing in America an advanced and dominant Aztec civilization landed in Plymouth, England during the time of Cromwell. You can imagine what that outcome would have been.

To deny the difference between civilizations is to deny what we consider progress.


Silverfiddle said...


And for the record, it is not a forgone conclusion that without the Arabs we would never have known the Greek classics. That's another trope preached by Islamist apologists.

Yes, the Abassids and other in Southern Spain paid to have some works translated, but it was a select set.

There exist quotes from the very early Christian Church, as well as the philosophical underpinnings of the Gospels that prove that early Christians were well-acquainted with Greek Philosophy, and they didn't get it from the Arabs.

St. Basil the Great advised young monks to use Greek philosophy as a bee uses the flower. Take only the "honey," ---- the truth --- which God has planted in the world to prepare men for the Coming of the Lord.

Monks from the time of the early church through the middle ages, preserved and translated ancient text, often hiding them in times of war to prevent their destruction.

So the Arabs did contribute greatly to bringing these works to the west from the 8th to the 13th Century, but there were also westerners doing the same work, and it is an exaggeration to say that without the Arabs we would not know Greek philosophy (I'm not saying you said that, just clarifying.)

Anonymous said...

Christians are worse than Muslims.
Christians are more full of hate than Muslims.
Christians are bigger murderers than Muslims.
Christians are bigger bigots than Muslims.
SF is proof, just read his bigoted intolerance, and he's actually tame compared to other Christians.
It's funny when he cites liberals being brainwashed by Obama, there's no one more brainwashed than a Christian and of course he wants us all to believe (be brainwashed) just like him.
Of course most of us do not have as weak a mind as SF.

Finntann said...

Stone any adulturers lately?

Decapitate any apostates?

No, I thought not.


Silverfiddle said...

Thanks Finn. After awhile it becomes a tiresome waste of time answering the loonies.

Les Carpenter said...

I see anon has decided to visit "attack"you as well. You therefore are obviously doing something right.

MathewK said...

Hanson says it better than most an he gets to the point, for all the piffle about all cultures are wonderful and all that, you'd much rather be in a hospital in the US than even in a European country, let alone some muslin shithole. And contrary to lazy and stupid leftist belief it's not whitey's fault.