Tuesday, August 9, 2011

Tea Party Punks vs Stodgy Progressive Establishment

Tea party conservatives are now the anti-establishment radicals

We've got the dogmatic progressive prigs backed into a corner, screaming that we're terrorists and kidnappers, or bloodthirsty carjackers stabbing babies in their car seats, or whatever the fevered ranters are telling the Obama-bots to repeat this week. 

I guess the imagery of the tea partiers being bad drivers and running Uncle Sam's car in the ditch wasn't morbid enough.

The 1900's: A Progressive Century

The 20th century saw the founders' constitutional republic grow into a monster, gobbling ever more money and personal freedoms. Sure, some good things happened: Womens suffrage, civil rights. But we also got a pay-for-play government of czarist fiat and special exemptions. America's ruling oligarchy makes money crafting dense bureaucratic sludge and then selling indulgences to the moneyed class who don't want to eat it. And the progressives continue to defend this stinking status quo that now has us teetering on the Eve of Destruction.

Greg Gutfeld over at Breitbart's Big Hollywood writes...
To me, the Tea Party really is the punk rock moment of politics – harkening back to simple math – rescuing us from 20 minute organ noodling found on Emerson Lake and Palmer records.

Yep, in a bloated world typified by Yes’s Roundabout on F-M circa 1977, the Tea Party offered “Beat on the Brat,” a jolt of Ramones wisdom that reminded us of what worked before.

It also exposed a key problem with “hope and change” of 2008. When an organic American movement rose up to question the direction of the Administration, those ephemeral “good feelings” of 2008 withered against simple principle.
George Will piles on...
"Think of any customer experience that has made you wince or kick the cat. What jumps to mind?

Waiting in multiple lines at the Department of Motor Vehicles. Observing the bureaucratic sloth and lowest-common-denominator performance of public schools, especially in big cities. Getting ritually humiliated going through airport security.

Trying desperately to understand your doctor bills. Navigating the permitting process at your local city hall. Wasting a day at home while the gas man fails to show up.

Whatever you come up with, chances are good that the culprit is either a direct government monopoly (as in the providers of K-12 education) or a heavily regulated industry or utility where the government is the largest player (as in health care)."

Since 1970, per-pupil real, inflation-adjusted spending has doubled and the teacher-pupil ratio has declined substantially. But math and reading scores are essentially unchanged, so we are spending much more to achieve the same results.
That is what we are rebelling against. Will reviews Nick Gillespie and Matt Welch's new book on libertarianism in America, and he brings us good news. We are raising a generation of libertarians:
A generation that has grown up with the Internet "has essentially been raised libertarian," swimming in markets, which are choices among competing alternatives.
And the left weeps. Preaching what has been called nostalgianomics, liberals mourn the passing of the days when there was one phone company, three car companies, three television networks, an airline cartel, and big labor and big business were cozy with big government.

The America of one universally known list of Top 40 records is as gone as records. (George Will – Minds Opening to Libertarian Ideas)
And we punks aim to toss big government statism on the same junk heap...


Always On Watch said...

Tea party conservatives are now the anti-establishment radicals

I hadn't thought of the situation that way.

Yes, the pendulum is swinging -- or trying to.

jez said...

Ahhh.... that's better. Punk vs prog rock. I'm home.
Each genre has its place and, to extend the analogy much too far, punk's simplistic philosophy quickly showed its limitations.

Yes, we quickly learn, there are benefits to learning how to play our instruments better; similarly there are benefits to taking some decisions collectively (street lighting, drains, defence etc.) rather than individually.

Silverfiddle said...

Jez: For the record, I love ELP, but I also like the Ramones, although I was just a tot back then.

There will always be arguments over where the Golden Mean is, but here in the US the "Statism vs Individual Liberty" pendulum has swung way too far to the Statism side.

Anonymous said...

I get that credit is an important thing: we all need to be able to borrow money in seriously crappy situations, and the lenders need to have confidence that we'll pay it back.

But the whole idea that we all need constantly to be in debt is asinine.

Welfare was designed to keep the poor subservient, and debt is designed to keep everyone else subservient.

Ducky's here said...

I love the new era of choice.

You walk into a standard market and 20% of the place is soda and potato chips, but what variety. And the Libertarians wallow in that choice.

Our culture is full of crap music, crap films and literature that has devolved into the "graphic novel" -- but you get the same "choice" you get in the potato chip aisle. The architecture is lame also but very cost efficient.

Punk vs. prog rock -- right.

Silverfiddle said...

Right Ducky...

Better to have the elites sit in Soviet-Style councils and decide what's good for the rest of us, eh?

The central-planning, keynesian, monetarist establishmentarianism has really worked out well, hasn't it?

I can't believe you're defending the status quo.

Jersey McJones said...

Trying to paint the Tea Party as the "punks" shaking up the scene is just silly. Their the stodgy morons who want to back-date America to a mythical past.

And Will's stupid assertion that somehow only government makes life miserable - the private sector never does any of that stuff, right? What a sleazy scumbag he is.

The Tea Party movemnet was born out of racism, pure and simple. It was the reaction to our fist black president - and one name "Barack Hussein Obama," oh my! Morons.

The real positive uprising is taking place in Wisconsin today. The sleazy Tea Party scumbags have been outted for what they really are, and the people are rising up to get rid of them.


jez said...

SF: I love punk too -- I'm more sex pistols than ramones...

jez said...

"But the whole idea that we all need constantly to be in debt is asinine."

True, but somebody needs to be in debt, and the amount of total debt needs to continually rise.

Bunkerville said...

We best pray we beat back the thugs in Wisconsin. Pure class warfare. It is a referendum on whether we will succumb to the "want to have your stash" or "go out and earn your fair share".- I can no longer carry you,

Speedy G said...

Our culture is full of crap music, crap films and literature that has devolved into the "graphic novel" .

So tell me again why you choose to buy that cr*p and load it into your personal I-Pod instead of checking out the "copyright expired" symphonies again.

Sounds like a personal problem, duckmeister.

Speedy G said...

...and Jersey, nobody gives a f*ck about your racism "tale of a tub" argument anymore. Nobody.

Speedy G said...

The unions have picked the wrong moment to make a scene. I can't wait to see the Verizon strike CRUSHED.

There are too many unemployed scabs, Jersey. Timing is everything.

Z said...

You remember EVE OF DESTRUCTION? That's almost early for ME :-) (not by much, but...)

"whatever the fevered ranters ARE TELLING THE OBAMA-BOTS TO REPEAT THIS WEEK"...absolutely true. We find the same words used every few weeks. it was ASTROTURF, then it was about TAKING AWAY MEDICARE and SOC SEC....then TPers were RACIST.....etc....and it's TERRORISTS and RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS ECONOMY this week. Beckel called Tea Partiers 'ANARCHISTS' last week.
Put a picture of leftist anarchists destroying political conventions in NYC and Chicago and compare it to the image you put with your piece today, SF; some anarchists, huh? And, I think Americans are seeing that duplicity and hypocrisy and MAY BE finally waking up. Dare we dream?

As a name-dropping aside, my business partner was in THE NICE, a group he started with Emerson before ELP. And, if Gutfeld hates too-long organ solos, he'd have really hated Gene Krupa (who was, indeed, way before me (and you)....a too-long solo is like "loud Ambien" to me).

Divine Theatre said...

The only solution to America's woes lies with libertarianism, which rejects statism fully and completely and embraces liberty, individualism, private charity, free markets, economic liberty, free enterprise, and private property. This always comes as a shock to people who have been indoctrinated since Kindergarten into thinking that that socialism, interventionism, and imperialism are freedom.

" None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Johann von Goethe

Silverfiddle said...

Z: Eve of destruction is before my time, as is the advent of punk, but I love music, including 1940's Bob Wills!

And Jez, I'm with ya on the Sex Pistols... Sub - Mission....

Shane Atwell said...

As soon as the main stream media and the leftists started recognizing the tea party for what we are, radicals for capitalism, they lost. 'Progressivism' is now the desire to conserve the failed welfare state and the tea party is now about fighting for a bright new laissez-faire capitalist future.

Ducky's here said...

@Farmer -- So tell me again why you choose to buy that cr*p and load it into your personal I-Pod instead of checking out the "copyright expired" symphonies again.


Farmer, my iPod scares people. I got into it over at Joe's blog when he posted something from his favorite mouth breather, Ann Barnhardt. Seems she was going on about how you get your head chopped in Islamic cultures if you play music. Now that bothered me fro a couple reasons.

1. The real kooks believe the punishment is to have hot lead poured in your ear in the afterlife not the chop. So even when these fools are dwelling on the worst they get it wrong.

2. I mentioned some of the 3 or 4 gigs of Islamic, North African, Arabic music I have on the iPod. More Islamic music than contemporary American stuff. One of Joe's followers stated that I couldn't possibly have any such thing. So be it.

What we are in o is a period where market forces have a complete control over the culture and the few subsidies we have will be removed and complete the homogenization.

Part of my reaction to this travesty came from being a kid near Cambridge in the 60's. The damn just burst.
Musically you had Coltrane switching from chords to modal after Giant Steps took chords as far as they were going to go. Ornette came along and said you didn't need either. That stuff was all over the radio and now it's down to one station.
We had Cage and Eliot Carter at Harvard.
The folk and delta blues revival. The Beatles discovered ragas. It was a hell of a lot more varied than punk vs. art rock. In fact punk was the last gasp of those days.

Then film from subsidized industries came in and when the French New Wave hit I knew I had been lied to for a long time. Then it came in from Britain, Russia, Japan, Italy, Sweden, Czechoslovakia ... hell you look at what was going on in East Germany and it was more substantive than American film.

The New Hollywood was around for a couple years and the studios killed it. Now it's back to a pretty homogeneous lump run by the market and you don't seem to understand the market restricts choice.

The Baggers aren't about to move us back outside the box.

Speedy G said...

the few subsidies we have will be removed and complete the homogenization.

You must not watch YouTube much, that's all I can say. Homogenization? Hardly. The markets pushing it the "other" way. That's what the Third Wave is. Diversification heading towards INDIVIDUALIZATION.

Speedy G said...

How many channels on your TV in '75?

How many now?

There you go.

Speedy G said...

My YouTube music recommender listens to what I listen to, and recommends similar music that I might enjoy.

My web-browser follows me around trying to learn what I like and storing it on "cookies" so that it can get the best ads for me (instead of the cosmetics ads it gets for you) instead of wasting my time.

Speedy G said...

The Third Wave fuels a million Indie Coltrane's where you mono-cultural mono-pop factory only created one.

It's called liberty, mr. ducky. Don't turtle on us now.

Speedy G said...

I don't think you understand what creates "culture" mr. ducky. You seek the return of the "blond beast"?

Ducky's here said...

How many channels on your TV in '75?

How many now?

There you go.


So I bought a .44 magnum it was solid steel cast

And in the blessed name of Elvis well I just let it blast

'Til my TV lay in pieces there at my feet

And they busted me for disturbin' the almighty peace

Judge said "What you got in your defense son ?"
"Fifty-seven channels and nothin' on"

You know the deal Farmer, don't play Mickey the Dunce.

Speedy G said...

You want to resurrect Mo so that he can go invade Mecca and punish the dissenters, that's your business. But as for me, I'm gonna stay here in Medina and enjoy the hotties that are due to roll in on the next caravan.

Speedy G said...

You know the deal Farmer, don't play Mickey the Dunce.

Do you ever listen to "progressive" music stations? We've got WRNR and WTMD here in Baltimore. 90% of the songs they play are brand new and suck to high heaven. But 10% is pretty damn good.

Then I flip over to JAK-FM and listen to canned oldies. 100% of the songs they play are great. All they've done is filter out the other 90% that ALWAYS sucked and didn't meet the "time-tested" seal of approval.

I don't need you to filter the 90% for me any more, mr. ducky. My computer can do it for me, MUCH better than you ever could. And btw - what I DO get is tailored to MY IQ, not jez's (average). The result is a MUCH better day for me.

Speedy G said...

Pretty soon my televisions going to be doing the same thing. No more "Desparate Housewives". Woo-Hoo!

Ducky's here said...

My YouTube music recommender listens to what I listen to, and recommends similar music that I might enjoy.

Yup, and those recommendation systems have been proven to be circular. You never get to far outside a particular genre.

Hell, I had a Netflix account for a while and it made recommendations. The algorithm didn't do very well.

No, what is happening is that the Net will simply expand the amount of "Top 10" content being downloaded and folks will see it as a great engine of choice.

If you are at all interested in film history it is impossible to get comprehensive content without a multi-region DVD player and residence in a major urban area.

Question: You think you have extensive choice which hits all your interests. How do you know?

Sometimes you just have to take a flier or depend on expert commentary and there really hasn't been much expansion of that. Lots of opinions but how do you sift the extraordinary amount of noise?

Hint: Don't bother. Build a standard library and use that as your guide.

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky: I gotta agree with Speedy.

The amount and variety of music available to anyone today is incredible. We have the opposite of homogenization going on.

There are millions of little niches out there.

I thought I knew Latin American music, but FJ showed me that I used to know it.


I do not disagree with you that forces are always trying to steer us.

Everybody's got something to sell except for me and my monkey.

Country Thinker said...

I'm not sure how the Tea Party can be called racist when two of the initial events to get the movement were begun under GWB - TARP and the related bailouts. Also, among Tea Partiers, Herman Cain is one of the favorite presidential candidates, Clarence Thomas is one of the favorite jurists, and Walter E. Williams is on of the favorite living economists. Hard to get there if your racist.

Be that as it may, Western, you are right about the younger generation. I am in regular contact with several student groups, and libertarianism is taking off. Conservatism is equated with George W. Bush, and is going by the wayside, as is progressivism/statism. These kids want a future, and they recognize that statists want to deprive them of opportunity.

Anonymous said...

>I'm not sure how the Tea Party can be called racist

Here's a translation that may come in handy.

Original Text:

"The Tea Party is racist!"


"Hello, I'm a complete moron. I engage in absolutely no intellectual activity whatsoever. Instead, I emote and repeat the idiocy that I hear spewed out by other imbeciles in my liberal/Democrat/leftist/collectivist/progressive emo club."

(Quoted from one of my previous comments.)

Anonymous said...

Country Thinker, don't forget Thomas Sowell, who is always the smartest person in the room, no matter what room he's in. He's also hated by leftists, not only because he is thoroughly effective in the fight against totalitarian collectivism, but more so because he had the gall to leave the chains of the plantation they work so hard to maintain. He doesn't know his proper place under the rule of his leftist massa!

Divine Theatre said...

Bastiatarian...that's the same translation for "Ron Paul is nuts!"

Speedy G said...

Conservatism is equated with George W. Bush...

Now THERE's a big mistake. GWB was the Republican "big money" choice. GHWB was the Republican "moderate" choice against Reagan in '80. Reagan was the last "conservative" president we've had.

Yup, and those recommendation systems have been proven to be circular. You never get to far outside a particular genre.

If it can track ME, it can get pretty far outside a particular "genre".

And btw - circular around ME is what I'm looking for. If I need to move outside my comfort zone, I'm always willing to plug in a mr. ducky recommendation... and it will remember and follow that. ;)

Question: You think you have extensive choice which hits all your interests. How do you know? How do I know when a "culture czar" is limitting the supply of material to my media player? I can tell you what I do when THAT happens. I turn it off and do my own searches. I can't DO that with the culture police only funding the agitrop trend setter of the moment.

The market responds to MY wishes. Culture czars, don't.

Jersey McJones said...

The Tea Parties, to this day, still haven't found a discernable platform. "Make governmnet smaller" is not a platform. It's a platitude. "Cut taxes and regulations" is not a platform. It's a platitude.

The entire movement was obviously born out of the foaming-at-the-mouth hatred of just the notion of having Barack Obama president.

"We want our country back!"

From who? The constitutionally popularly elected president?

And the signs! The Hitler mustaches, the Joker from Batman, and some that were just clearly racist anti-black!

And the silly conspiracy theories! As if it was planned all along, from his birth, that Obama would run for president, and so, of course, was given the oh-so presidetial name "Barack Hussein Obama!"

So pathetically obvious.

Yeah, sure, I remember that sleazy rant from that sleazy CNBC guy at the Chicago merc, but that was just a pebble in the water.

(By the way, it was not about TARP, it was about the HASP - in Feb. 2009. Get your history straight.)

It was the election of Obama that created the tsunami.

Yet Obama inherited the mess that was created decades ago.

Obama didn't repeal Glass-Steagal. Obama didn't start the radical cutting of taxes while radically borrowing to make up the revenue short-falls that we've seen for the past thirty years. Obama didn't start the unfunded wars in Iraq and Afghanista. And as we all know, he would not have done any of those things.

The whole Tea Party thing is and has always been a thinly veiled racist attack on Obama - and nothing, ever, more.


Silverfiddle said...

Jersey: Speaking of platitudes, you are the king. "racist... bla bla bla..."

Stay the course! Right? There's a plan!

BTW, since you're a self-appointed history professor, you know that Glass Steagall was repealed by the last Democrat president, Bill Clinton!

Finally, Mr Jersey, about your frequent charges of racism...

It's insulting, to me and to my fellow tea partiers. I'm only going to ask you this one time:

Prove it! Put up or shut up! You got one shot. Prove that I and the other conservatives and libertarians who comment here are racist or shut the hell up. I'm not going to stand for any more insults from you.

Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lisa said...

Jersey you are really sick with your broad based statements. You know what's racist-Supporting someone regardless of their policies based on their color.
That's what the left does.
Have a listen you crazy man:


Anonymous said...

I'm very much afraid that too many here present are confusing Libertarianism with what-I-regretfully-must-call UNIDIGITALISM.

Liberty cannot not be experienced amidst Chaos, institutionalized Insolence, Barbarity, Sloth and Unchecked Rapacity. Unbridled vulgarity does not result in freedom either.

"In that way madness lies."

"Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

The ardent embrace of the cultural Da-Da-ism that overtook us long ago is, very sadly, one of the hallmarks of the degeneracy that's eating us alive. Keeping ourselves mired in childhood and adolescence has dire consequences.

The Cultural Marxists -- purveyors of Doom all -- sowed the seeds for that as well. Eradicating all ability to discriminate between good taste and bad, high-class, and low, sublime and profane with the militant assertion that "all things are of equal value" is the linchpin of their Master Plan.

It scares the hell out of me to see that younger people have no idea of the Time Bomb that has been implanted in their sub-conscious. Depravity now seems normal, acceptable, even laudable and respectable -- even something we study now in colleges and universities as though it were a valuable discipline. Trash is now seen as Treasure in the Public Mind -- and woe betide anyone who claims otherwise.

Satan's greatest accomplishment so far has been to persuade the majority of sinners he does not exist.

"What fools these mortals be!"

~ FreeThinke

Thersites said...

Jersey's just hijacking the thread with his tale of a racist (tub) just like the DNC's trying to divert the mainstream media into following it's "tale of a tea party (tub)".

...and the Democrats have an endless supply of "grievance" tubs to throw overboard.

Swift, ToaT

The wits of the present age being so very numerous and penetrating, it seems the grandees of Church and State begin to fall under horrible apprehensions lest these gentlemen, during the intervals of a long peace, should find leisure to pick holes in the weak sides of religion and government. To prevent which, there has been much thought employed of late upon certain projects for taking off the force and edge of those formidable inquirers from canvassing and reasoning upon such delicate points. They have at length fixed upon one, which will require some time as well as cost to perfect. Meanwhile, the danger hourly increasing, by new levies of wits, all appointed (as there is reason to fear) with pen, ink, and paper, which may at an hour’s warning be drawn out into pamphlets and other offensive weapons ready for immediate execution, it was judged of absolute necessity that some present expedient be thought on till the main design can be brought to maturity. To this end, at a grand committee, some days ago, this important discovery was made by a certain curious and refined observer, that seamen have a custom when they meet a Whale to fling him out an empty Tub, by way of amusement, to divert him from laying violent hands upon the Ship. This parable was immediately mythologised; the Whale was interpreted to be Hobbes’s “Leviathan,” which tosses and plays with all other schemes of religion and government, whereof a great many are hollow, and dry, and empty, and noisy, and wooden, and given to rotation. This is the Leviathan from whence the terrible wits of our age are said to borrow their weapons. The Ship in danger is easily understood to be its old antitype the commonwealth. But how to analyse the Tub was a matter of difficulty, when, after long inquiry and debate, the literal meaning was preserved, and it was decreed that, in order to prevent these Leviathans from tossing and sporting with the commonwealth, which of itself is too apt to fluctuate, they should be diverted from that game by “A Tale of a Tub.” And my genius being conceived to lie not unhappily that way, I had the honour done me to be engaged in the performance.

Meanwhile, the whalers harvest ever more and varied sperm whales as the Pequod sails on...

Thersites said...

Midshipman Obama of the HMS Pequod, reporting for duty, SIR!

Anonymous said...

Oh come on, SilverFiddle. Stick with your libertarian principles, please, and don't start censoring those make make aggressively inane assertions.

Their words speak very clearly for themselves. We don't have to let ourselves feel "insulted" when someone makes foolish accusations we know are not true. We also have no obligation to respond.

Let the cheese stand alone. ;-)

Jersey doesn't hurt my feelings any, even though he often tells me to "Grow up," when I am old enough to be his father. I think it's kinda cute actually. He's such a kid at heart. And I know he means well.

An excellent textbook case of liberal "thought" in action. His wild accusations serve only to prove our points anyway in most cases.

~ FreeThinke

-FJ said...

HMS, Thersites? That there's a Yankee hull out of Nantucket, if ever there was one!

Jersey McJones said...


I'm sorry that you can't see the racist element in the Tea Party. It obviously bothers you - as I know you are not a racist - and so you obviously just shut it out of your mind.

As for history, I would never take me for granted on that. It's my forte.

Country Thinker, above, made the false asrtion that the Tea Party was born out of a reaction to the TARP. That's false.

And to add even more to the racist charge (there are many examples), is the knock on HASP from many one the right was that it was created by the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act) and pressure from F&F to make loans to MINORITIES. A racist lie.

If the timing and tone of movement isn't enough for you (it's enough for most reasonable observers), it goes on...

Dale Robertson's infamous "Congress=Slaveowner, Taxpayer=Niggar" sign, the shouting of "niggar" and "faggot" at congressmen, Sonny Thomas' "So many spics makes me feel like a speck," the infmaous Obama (and family) monkey photos and pictures and jokes.

You'd have to be living under a rock - or in denial - to miss all that, Silver. I think it must be denial.


-FJ said...

Removed by the author, not blog administrator, FreeThinke.

-FJ said...

...meanwhile, the tub floats on. Now, watch it sink....

Divine Theatre said...

Dear Allah, Jersey! Why is it that you and your ilk must resort to becoming caricatures of drooling idiots when confronted with reality?
After posting my opinions on an online news source regarding the wilding in Wisconsin and Illinois I was told my opinions made me as dangerous as a rapist or a child molester.
Do you people really think this is an effective form of debate?

Anonymous said...

Some speak through statistics. Many more through the exchange of insults and strident denunciation. Occasionally I try to synthesize my thoughts in verse.

Try this on for size, and see how it may relate to this issues at hand -- all of which stem from one root anyway. Either you see it, or you don't:


An Opus for Our Time

_________ OR ________

_ Bolshevism Revisited _

A Leftist caught in doubt
Lifts up his head to shout:

Your treatment is unfair,
You bully! How you dare
To question my veracity
With cruel, hard-eyed tenacity
I do not know. My views
Which boldly you accuse
Of being falsely ranked
In truth are sacrosanct.

My thoughts are Holy Writ.
Your thoughts are quite unfit;
Based on selfish fears
They inspire tears
And dare to say the blame
Lies squarely in the frame
Of those whose failing lives
Look to him who thrives
And say: Your gold is mine,
You greedy, bloated swine.
You have more than you need.
It's up to you to feed
Me, the ill and weak,
Else Heaven that you seek
Will ever be denied.

And I will see your hide
Shredded, tanned and dried.
And hung outside the gates
Of each neighborhood that hates
The needy and the poor,
Who soon will storm your door
And drag you from your bed
And then lop off your head.
While the masses you denied
Will ever take great pride
Your ignominious demise
Was effected in the guise
Of condign righteous wrath
Giving Bourgeois digs a bath.

With stolen food and goods
We'll raze your neighborhoods
And laugh to see you hurt
Dying in the dirt.
We live for your demise.
We thrive on righteous hate.
It is by now too late
To make a plan to stop us
End the Founder's opus.
Our Marx destroyed your God.
He's in - not on - the sod
Feeding nematodes
In their dark abodes.

With mockery and shrill
Sarcastic gibes we kill.
We drool with sheer delight
At the thought of endless night.
Where everything that's witty,
Charming, gracious, pretty
Slumps to the nitty gritty,
As we revel in the dung
Corrupting all your young.

For 'we are the little folk, we
Too little to love or to hate.
Leave us alone, and soon you will see
How quickly we'll drag down the state.'*

* Rudyard Kipling

~ FreeThinke (2010)

Lisa said...

Jersey I would like to rephrase your statement:

"sleazy Tea Party scumbags have been outted for what they really are, and the people are rising up to get rid of them."


The sleazy Democrat scumbags have been outted for what they really are, and the Tea Party are rising up to get rid of them."

Now go watch that You Tube Video

Silverfiddle said...

Who's Dale Robertson?

As to your logic, Jersey...

Liberals were really mad after the 2000 election and they hated George Bush. Then a year later 9/11 happened. Coincidence? Huh? Huh?

Just as I thought, no proof, just loony liberal post hoc fallacious reasoning...

Anonymous said...

FJ posted:

Removed by the author, not blog administrator, FreeThinke.

Not sure what you mean, FJ. Did I say otherwise?

Don't think so.

You may mean what I told SilverFiddle about not making good on his apparent threat to censor Jersey for making insulting remarks. We all know where THAT leads, I'm sure. Blacking out thoughts and feelings we don't like is a form of despotism.

SF has developed such a great atmosphere of true freedom here. I'd rather see it abused than eliminated.

~ FT

Anonymous said...


DOW is up 400 points today.

Go figger!

Fed propping up Zero?

I'm not sure there's any cause for rejoicing -- yet.

Nevertheless, hope springs eternal.

We do live in interesting times -- DAMMIT!

~ FreeThinke

-FJ said...

Not sure what you mean, FJ. Did I say otherwise?

Sorry, I took you post as an accusation against SF. My apologies.

Leticia said...

I am a proud member of the NEA Tea Party and I shared this on my Facebook page.

OUR MISSION, listen up LIBS: Is to attract, educate, organize, and mobilize our fellow citizens to secure public policy consistent with three core values of Fiscal Responsibility, Constitutionally Limited Government and Free Markets. Nuff said.

The Dems have to blame someone, might as well retire President Bush and target the TPP.

Lisa said...

"DOW is up 400 points today"

It must have been the stimulus money. Obama saved or created 400 points.

Anonymous said...

Just in from the Netwits:


Five Pearls of Wisdom from the Scots

1. Money cannot buy happiness but somehow, it's more comfortable to cry in a Mercedes than it is on a bicycle.

2. Forgive your enemy, but remember the bastard's name.

3. Help a man when he is in trouble, and he will remember you when he is in trouble again.

4. Many people are alive only because it's illegal to shoot them.

5. Alcohol does not solve any problem, but then neither does milk.

Submitted by FreeThinke

Z said...

This cracked me up...."I'm sorry that you can't see the racist element in the Tea Party. It obviously bothers you - as I know you are not a racist - and so you obviously just shut it out of your mind."

Could we see proof of that, please? SOme of the leaders of the TP movement are Black, and there were PLENTY at the one small event I went to in L.A... Odd that Conservatives, most of whom would vote for Cain or West YESTERDAY if they could, would be considered racist. Why go there? It's so hackneyed and really silly!?

-FJ said...

He only throws out empty tubs, Z. As we've seen time and again, there's never anything in 'em.

Jersey McJones said...


Do me and yourself a favor. Don't associate me with Islam, as I happen to think it is the stupidest of all the three stupid "great" monotheistic religions, and don't lump me in with some anecdotal encounter you have with another ostensibly "liberal," I assume, blogger.

And then, if you'd be so kind, make an actual argument, please.


"Who's Dale Robertson?"

Look it up.

And comparing the Tea Party to the 9/11 suicide hijackers is on you on that one... ;) (Just kidding! Just kidding!)

Lisa, grow up.


Finntann said...

Racist Tea Party Endorsed Black Candidates in the 2010 election:

Senate candidates:

Marion Thorpe, Florida

Michael Williams, Texas

House of Representatives Candidates:

Lester Phillip, Alabama’s 5th District

Princella Smith, Arkansas’s 1st District

Vernon Parker, Arizona’s 3rd District

Virginia Fuller,California’s 7th District

Star Parker, California’s 37th District

Chrystopher Smith, California’s 39th District

C. Mason Weaver, California’s 53rd District

Ryan Frazier, Colorado’s 7th District

Eddie Adams, Florida’s 11th District

Corey Poitier, Florida’s 17th District

Allen West, Florida’s 22nd District

Deon Long, Florida’s 24th District

Cory Ruth, Georgia’s 4th District

Deborah Honeycutt, Georgia’s 13th District

Rupert Parchment, Georgia’s 13th District

Isaac Hayes, Illinois’s 2nd District

Robert Broadus, Maryland’s 4th District

Finntann said...

Jersey, if you think Dale Robertson characteristic of the Tea Party movement, what does that say about the Democrats and the Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops Robert Byrd? How many Tea Party Conservatives have founded their own chapter of the Klu Klux Klan?

As far as the Hitler mustaches go...do I really need to post 6,000 pictures of BusHitler signs?

Obama has gotten no disrespect that even comes close to that received by Bush.

“A a frequent speaker at tea party rallies around the country, I can assure the NAACP that the tea party movement’s concerns are about President Obama’s policies and not his race,” says Deneen Borelli, a Fellow with the black conservative group Project 21. “I’m deeply concerned that the NAACP is being used as a political tool to do the dirty work of the progressive movement.

And who is it calling black conservative candidates, "Oreos", "Uncle Toms", and "Traitors"? Tea Partiers? or Liberal Democrats?

Your blatant attempt at racial McCarthyism has epically failed.

You just don't get it... we don't like him not because he's black, but because he's a progressive socialist. I can think of half a dozen black conservative candidates, all eminately more qualified than Obama that I'd vote for before Sarah Palin... does that make me a sexist?

How about if one of them is Condoleeza Rice?

Your BS is getting old, for every racist conservative you can point to, I can find two racist democrats. Leave it alone.

Up the Republic!

Anonymous said...

>I'm sorry that you can't see the racist element in the Tea Party.

I'm sorry that you become more and more psychotic with each passing day.

Anonymous said...

Jersey, Really? The racist Tea Party bit? I guess if you count stupid as race.

Is Allen West part of the Racist Tea Party agenda?

Jersey McJones said...

Guys, I've known plenty of lefties who made me uncomfortable with some of their prejudices. You really don't see that on the right, huh?

Very irresponsible. And stupid.


Anonymous said...

>You really don't see that on the right

Possibly, but we have the intellectual capacity as well as the wisdom to recognize anomalies and exceptions for what they are: anomalies and exceptions. You would do well to develop similar skills yourself, otherwise you will continue to appear to be a clown of unfathomable intellectual deficiency.

Anonymous said...

Vernon Parker is a black man as are many of those candidates

Elmers Brother said...

38 black candidates supported by TP

Elmers Brother said...

Sorry missed finntanns comment

Anonymous said...

Yes. Sure the Tea Party supports numerous black candidates, but what you guys don't seem to want to realize is that in the mind of most liberals blacks who endorse conservative ideas are not "really" blacks at all. They're contemptuously regarded as Uncle Toms.

Only the ugly, angry, violent, anarchistic black -- like Malik "Zulu" Shabazz -- is considered "authentic" by the group who wants us to believe it is striving with all its might to end "racism," when in fact it is the most race-conscious faction of all.

I've never met a liberal yet who didn't constantly harp on "race" and pick at scabs and pour salt into old wounds in matters relating to The Struggle for Black Civil Rights. Agitate. Agitate. Agitate. That's all these types know how to do. That and continually Taking Offense. They're always furious about something -- usually issues that are not properly their business.

It's an awful bore.

~ FreeThinke

jez said...

"Homogenization? Hardly. Diversification heading towards INDIVIDUALIZATION."

Both are happening at the same time.
This seeming paradox is possible because, although recording and releasing music is cheaper than ever, promotion is not.
We have access to a plethora of music which relatively small percentages of us would love, but probably won't find because it isn't promoted. The software recommendations at lastfm etc. don't work well (yet -- and I have my doubts about any non-human recommendation scheme). You're stuck with personal recommendations (which we've always had), or trawling through myspace or whatever looking for gems. The latter takes a lot of dedication (because the hit rate is so bad), so almost nobody actually does that.

At the same time, there is a small amount of terrible music targeted at the mainstream and backed by the industry. The relative cost of promotion is now so high that only the safest and blandest of music can justify the expenditure.

In pop music, part of what I admire is the universality. The fact that everybody likes the beatles and the beach boys doesn't taint them, it makes them more precious. I can't imagine anything like that happening now.

Anybody who thinks there are a million Coltranes on the indie circuit needs a hearing test.

Z said...

"Guys, I've known plenty of lefties who made me uncomfortable with some of their prejudices. You really don't see that on the right, huh?"

EVERY special interest group has people within it who are a little more "specially interesting," no doubt about it. If you're back on the subject of race again, however, those blacks in the TP movement are not anomalies, they're higher standing members in whatever pecking order that's going on these days.
Someone may find 3 racists in a TP group of 1000; that does not a Racist Tea Party Make, let's make that perfectly clear.

Silverfiddle said...

Z: "Special interesting..."

I like that!

Anonymous said...

I've got news for you, Jez. "Everybody" does not like the Beatles or the Beach Boys.

Some of us prefer Machaut, Josquin des Prez, Palestrina, Byrd, Bull, Gibbons, Zweelinck, Vittoria, Monteverdi, Purcell, Greene, Rameau Couperin, Buxtehude, Bach, Scarlatti, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Weber, Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Lizt, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Richard Strauss, Mahler, Faure, Debussy, Ravel, DuParc, Hugo Wolff, Gustav Holst, Elgar, Prokofieff, Verdi, Puccini, Hindmith, Heinz Werner Henze, Rachmaninoff, and Douglas Moore, et al.

To say nothing of Art Tatum, Erroll Garner, Marian McPartland, George Shearing, Bill Evans, Cleo Laine, John Dankworth, Stepan Grappelli, Bricktop, Alberta Hunter, Benny Goodman, Lionel Hampton, Gene Krupa, Bobby Short, Mabel Mercer, Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey, the Andrews Sisters, Helen O'Connell, and Stephen Sondheim, et al.

Try not to be so insular in your tastes. ;-)


~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

My God! You westerners up awfully early, aren't you?

Where do you get the energy?

Have a lovely day.

~ FT

jez said...

freethinke: the only people who claim not to like the beatles are either looking for an argument, or haven't listened to enough beatles. This is factual.

I'm not insular. pretty much every genre contains something worthwhile.

MK said...

The Tea Party and Conservatives are the real radicals in the west today, we're the ones dissenting and demanding to be heard. We're the ones asking tough questions of elitist slimeballs and holding them to account.

The liberals and leftards are just whiny faggots mouthing what they're told and following every order given to them. Cowardly, gutless cretins with no brains or spine to think for themselves and be independent.

-FJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
-FJ said...

Try getting out more, jez. Your comfort zone is WAY too narrow. ;)

Lisa said...

Lisa, grow up.

After you Jersey.

Jersey there is racism in all races.
Flash Mob anyone?

Z said...

Jez says : "freethinke: the only people who claim not to like the beatles are either looking for an argument, or haven't listened to enough beatles. This is factual."

That cracked me UP! I have to say that the Beatles are SO varied in their music that that really is a true sentiment. Who can't like NORWEGIAN WOOD or AND I LOVE HER?
Even someone who hates GET BACK or COME TOGETHER has GOT to like Norwegian WOod........just GOT to!

I've never been able to figure out how I, a standards jazz singer and classical pianist raised in California, has THE BAND as one of her very favorites... and ZZ TOP and Mr LEON RUSSELL and that kind of stuff!
I love all kinds of music, but give me really good twangy pickin' Southern Rock n' Roll ANY time!

Speaking of Leon; the new Elton/Leon album is good beyond my wildest expectations. just sayin'

Anonymous said...

The first point of wisdom is to discern that which is false; the second, to know what is true.

~ Lactantius

A fool in a gown is none the wiser.

A foolish woman diligently advertises her own folly.

A woman may be a fool and not know it.

A fool has no delight in understanding, but [only] in expressing his own heart.

~ Prov 18:2

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
~ Proverbs 12: 15

Fools live, but do not learn.

He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
Proverbs 13: 20

A fool is never wrong.

Submitted by FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

“Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.”

~ Aristotle

Submitted by FreeThinke

jez said...

thanks Z. And even if I was leg-pulling with "this is factual", still it's pointless to disagree that the Beatles achieved universality, near enough. I really can't think of any music that's had a broader appeal.

Z said...

jez, I agree, no more broader appeal. And I wasn't even a Beatles fan when they were 'big'.....sounds nuts, but I was never one to 'follow the pack' on music and so I resisted, only to realize how amazingly talented they were later on!
Jez, George Harrison went to a small wedding I was invited to years ago...the wedding of Gary Wright (song: Dream Weaver) and an acquaintance of mine. I figured George wouldn't come and I decided that morning not to go. It's something I'll never really get over :-)

jez said...

You idiot!!!

Are you still in Cal? Have you ever seen Jon Brion play his residency at Largo in LA? He can really breathe new life into an old jazz standard, especially with fiona apple singing.

Z said...

"idiot" isn't IN it, Jez....My business partner said I let out a 'primal scream' when my friend called and asked "why didn't you COME? George was THERE!" And only 24 other guests. WHAT WAS I THINKING to diss a wedding reception I'd RSVP'd yes to, ANYWAY? GOD.

AH, well.....misspent youth.

I know of the Largo but not Jon Brion...I just googled and learned a lot about both; I guess I can't count on Fiona Apple, though, because it sounds like he uses whoever's there that night?
Is it one of those dinky, tight theatres that make you feel tied in? Or not too bad?

I used to sing a lot at the Gardenia. Do you know that club??

Anonymous said...

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

Some folks like chocolate, others vanilla.

Some like the Beatles, others prefer The Cleveland Quartet.

Some folks like Gospel, others prefer Palestrina.

Some folks don't like crab, shrimp and lobster. I never could figure that one out.

There jess ain't no accountin' fer taste.

But Oscar Wilde spoke volumes when he said, "Whatever becomes popular is wrong."

~ FreeThinke

jez said...

Z: I went to the club straight from the plane and was jet-lagged pretty badly so don't remember too clearly, but I don't think it was all that small, seats maybe 200? Fiona Apple is just amazing with a standard, I wish she'd do an album of them.

Freethinke: I don't know what your point is. Are you worried that I don't listen to enough variety of music? You mustn't worry. Or perhaps you're milking the frisson you get from claiming to dislike the "popular" beatles? Could it be that Oscar was poking fun at you?

Anyway, I brought the Beatles up to make the point that their broad popularity is itself valuable because it gives very different people who might otherwise have nothing in common an important shared cultural basis. Like Z and me: we may differ politically and in many other ways, but I can't stay mad at someone who likes come together.

(Personally, I don't think it gets any better than late period Beethoven, but that's not anywhere near universal, even at the time.)

Anonymous said...

" ... I don't think it gets any better than late period Beethoven ..."

We probably agree on that, though many works from serious composers from the Mediaeval period to Benjamin Britten reach great heights.

... but that's not anywhere near universal, even at the time ..."

Exactly the opposite is true, Jez. Vulgarity, frivolity, inanity and faddishness may have greater appeal to the masses, but that does not mean those things have universal significance. It only means the ignorant masses have shallow perceptions and bad taste.

Pandering to the lowest common denominator in the name of "equality" does everyone a great disservice. It keeps people down. High culture may be challenging, but it exalts and ennobles.

Why do you think the great cathedrals were built? To inspire the masses with awe, wonder and aspiration. Saying the mass in a hut with a dirt floor made of wattle and daub accompanied by the uncouth howling of some folk minstrel just doesn't have the same effect as seeing and hearing it in a great stone edifice with vaulted ceilings, arched aisles and stained glass windows.

Please don't tell me that Praise Choruses (the music of rednecks, ignoramuses and perennial adolescents), "Christian" Rock, and Folk "Guitar" masses have any value whatsoever when placed in the light of Sacred Music at Kings College Chapel, Cambridge. The last is sublime, the others pathetic.

Sorry, but I never did like the Beatles. I was in college when they first came on the scene, and took their sudden, overwhelming popularity as clear and convincing evidence that the world was losing its collective mind. That was fifty years ago, and my opinion hasn't altered in the slightest.

I don't despise common people at all, but I despise aggressive bad taste, and unlike too many know it when I see it, and am not afraid to identify it as such.

~ FreeThinke

jez said...

"Pandering to the lowest common denominator in the name of "equality" does everyone a great disservice."

Agreed, but the Beatles didn't do that, they were great AND popular.
It's quite plausible that you don't like rock and roll, but as they progressed they went far beyond rock and roll. I don't believe, without you telling me that you've already tried, that you wouldn't find something to enjoy on a record like Revolver. Even if you don't enjoy it, the craftsmanship is undeniable: you should be able to recognise that what they do, they do very well even if you don't like it. That's my reaction to certain of the classical giants like Mozart -- there's no point not admitting his brilliance (and it's not just his popularity, I can tell from his constructions), but I happen not to much like him.

My favourite church in Italy (a country crowded with some of the finest examples of cathedrals) is a modest chapel in Assisi. I was a christian at the time that I visited, and the eg. Sistine chapel, ridiculously impressive though it was, just didn't feel holy.

Surely you have the experience of loving something that others can't see the value in? If so, then you should see why there's no point dismissing Christian Rock or anything else. It only has to "work," and if it does, it's good enough. Like Paul Simon's one-trick pony, it either fails or it succeeds.

Z said...

jez, please DON'T MAKE ME LIKE YOU :-)

i'd ask about the Christian thing but you've probably posted before in depth on various subjects for why you're not a Christian anymore, so I'll let it rest.
I'm sorry about that, tho.

Anonymous said...

Only A Matter of Taste?

 * A True Story *

At my last job as an organist and choirmaster I made a modest $200.00 a week. That of course included a midweek choir rehearsal as well as two services on Sunday morning --- and a twenty-mile commute in each direction.

Many of the church people thought they were paying far too much for my services. What few ever realized --- or cared to know --- was that I spent a minimum of twenty hours a week preparing for these weekly events. I also composed new music for the choir, made new arrangements of familiar hymns, and wrote new organ solos on a regular basis.

I was merely trying to follow, as best I could, in the well-established tradition of such a figure as J.S. Bach, who was fully expected to compose new music every week, rehearse singers, perform brilliantly on the organ --- and also teach classes in Latin in his spare time.

Bach, the greatest of role models for any field, was often paid in cords of firewood or bushels of potatoes and the like. 

The point is this: If you strive for excellence and do this work wholeheartedly for the love of Christ, to honor the Holy Spirit, and to serve the highest standards of Beauty and Professionalism, there is no way you could ever expect to get paid "enough" in earthly terms. No one does this kind of thing for the money.

As a serious-minded, classically-trained musician who worked for forty years in the church off and on, I have always deeply resented the coming of what-sounds-to-me-like "Hootnannies for Him," "Swing and Sway with the Savior," "Cocktails with Christ," "Prayin' at the Prom" or "Worshippin’ at Woodstock."

That many desire and strongly approve of such carryings on proves that too many parishioners have no idea whatsoever what really good liturgical music is all about.

A case in point: I worked with a young Sunday School Superintendent at an Episcopal Church about twenty years ago. She was absolutely positive that music in the styles of Elvis, Dolly Parton, Kenny Rogers, Joan Baez, Pete Seeger was the only way to go when trying to teach children about Jesus

. And Oh how she would loved to hear that Motown Sound!

I admit to a penchant for making mischief when I feel I am confronting ignorance or hostility to learning more than someone already thinks he knows, so I went home and composed the story of the Passion in rhyme, and set it to YANKEE DODDLE just to show this person how using certain "good old familiar tunes," which is what she and many others always longed to hear in church, can be ludicrously inappropriate for expressing the true meaning and character of our most sacred texts.

Naturally, I thought she'd "get it" immediately when I performed this travesty for her one sullen winter afternoon.

NOT SO! Instead she exclaimed enthusiastically, "GREAT! That's JUST the kind of thing I've been looking for. The kids will love it. Where did you find it? It's EXCELLENT!


When I told her I'd just made it up, she was astonished, and looked at me with new eyes.

I felt like cringing inside during this whole embarrassing incident --- and still do whenever I think of it. 

Yes, the basic story of the Passion was accurately related, but the whole thing was a dreadful MOCKERY and SHE could NOT see that.

Ignorance on that grand a scale is a woeful thing, and I'm very much afraid that our country is absolutely loaded with it.

Well-meaning idiocy may serve the Lord more poorly than outright wickedness, I have come to believe.

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

The Passion of Our Lord

Lord Jesus Christ has come to town
a riding on a donkey
The Romans saw a challenge
tried of Him to make a monkey.

Hail! King Jesus of the Jews
riding on a burro
Shout hosannas loud today
then crucify tomorrow.

Jesus took His followers
into the Upper Room
He fed them on His body and blood
and told them of His doom.

Then to Dark Gethsemane
a praying in the garden
Begging of His father
from His bitter cup to pardon.

Peter, faithless, thrice denied
that His Lord he kneweth
Judas kissed Him in betrayal
evil from him speweth.

“Hail, King Jesus of the Jews!”
shouted in derision
Drag your cross to Golgotha
that is the crowd’s decision.

Then they crowned Him cruelly
with strands of pyrocanthus,
Nailed Him to the dogwood tree
which broke His feet and hands thus.

Gentle Jesus, meek and mild,
only said, “Forgive them”
Of the crowd and soldiers wild’
who knew not He’d outlive them.

After tortures barbarous
He said, “I have a thirst.”
They only gave Him vinegar
which really was the worst.

Gentle Jesus, meek and mild,
then gave up the Ghost
Broken and defamed, reviled
just like a Friar’s Roast!

Then, they laid Him in a tomb
with all the Marys weeping
She who bore him in her womb
thought He’d be always sleeping.

But, He showed them three days hence
when He was resurrected
That the worst developments
by faith can be corrected.

By FreeThinke (1994)

Sung to the tune of Yankee Doodle

NOW do you begin to understand the grave dangers inherent in moral, cultural and artistic relativism? Just because "the people" like something doesn't mean it "works." People respond to a great many things that are in fact bad for them -- often with terrifying enthusiasm. At the rate things have been going we may soon see Simulated Sex With The Savior during Communion with priests masturbating into the chalice. THAT ought to bring 'em in in droves.

~ FT

jez said...

Z, don't forget I'm in favour of gun control and against the death penalty. ;)

FT: Most people aren't as interested in music as you, and aren't inclined to give it a moment's thought. You made a mistake by laying that trap. This was a lady doing a chore and, wanting to get it out of the way, she said "yes" to the first thing that sounded vaguely in the ballpark. It's your job to make sure that someone like that only has pearls to choose between. ;)

Of course music is not ONLY a matter of taste, see what I've been saying about recognising craftsmanship. But if anyone loves it, and I mean LOVES it, not merely tolerates it, then that means it works so must be good enough (for that person, maybe not for me).

I know a fair bit about music too, but there's just no point me telling someone that they're wrong to love something that they do. There's some music that I find shallow, eg. REM's "everybody hurts", but for some people it helps, apparently. Why should I resist the fact that it "works" well enough to get a valuable job done for some people, albeit not for me?

Anonymous said...

Some people enjoy sex with whores too, Jez, but let's not make the error of confusing that with true love, please.

Swing and Sway with the Saviour might be "fun," but it ISN'T worship anymore than hoisting a few at the local pub on Friday nights with your mates, or attending a Polo Match at Cowdray Park is worship.

The purpose of going to church is not to be entertained it's to be uplifted. If church were merely another form of public entertainment, the pastors would be reading excerpts from Lady Chatterley's Lover, Fanny Hill, My Secret Life, Sports Illustrated and The Ladies' Home Journal from the pulpit instead of the Bible.

As it is, I've been seriously offended that a certain parish in the United Methodist Church that shall remain nameless has a female pastor who gives lectures on how to achieve more satisfying orgasms during masturbation.

No shit, Sherlock!

Dear God! What would it take to get you to see how fallacious -- and detrimental -- your relativistic approach to values has been to society?

~ FreeThinke

PS: Have no fear Z's threat to get fond of you is really aimed at me, Jez. The lady hates my guts, because after a long quasi-intimate relationship I came to see her for what she is. - FT

jez said...

It's not relativistic, but it is subjective.

You do yourself a disservice by writing off whole genres.

Thersites said...

That not writing off genre's. That's avoiding MIXING them. Big difference. Not mixing the sacred with the profane makes sense. The Maplethorpe pictures shouldn't be displayed in a Church, should they?

Thersites said...

...just as a portrait of Jesus shouldn't hang in a porno theatre.

Thersites said...

Ecclesiastes 3.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Thersites. It's encouraging to see that someone is willing to get the point I've been trying to make.

Culinary analogies apply also. You don't put garlic in chocolate fudge. You don't fry chicken in used crankcase oil. You don't put red hot chili peppers in lemon meringue pie, etc.

There's so much more I could say, but it would be a waste of effort at this point.

But it deeply saddens and distresses me that we have reached the point where people can literally wear a ring in their nose, pierce their tongue with a big shiny bolt, cover themselves with tattoos paying homage to Satan, dye their hair purple, green and orange, blast raucous, cacophonous, belligerent trash from portable "boomboxes" on public conveyances, and at beaches and parks, and we're all expected to find that socially acceptable.

Why not simply replace the outmoded, conventional worship service with The Sunday Screw? Y'all come to the chapel and fuck your brains out, ya hear?

The modern world is disgusting, discouraging, depressing and demeaning beyond measure. And even those who think they re fighting to overcome it have been fatally contaminated by it without realizing it.

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

As I said early in the thread:

Satan's greatest accomplishment so far has been to persuade the majority of sinners he does not exist.

~ FT

jez said...

I don't when we switched to talking about liturgical music, or why you think I'd be interested in it, but it sounds like the "profane" is music from the folk traditions rather than the classical ones? But weren't the hymns of Bach's day derived from folk tunes?
There and in other places, classical and folk traditions have been mixed to great effect. Jazz is entirely borne of mixing genres.

Anonymous said...


Tunes are as neutral as the alphabet. Their effect depends almost entirely on how they are treated, harmonically rhythmically, contrapuntally and dynamically -- to say nothing of instrumentation or orchestration.

If you thought I made reference to liturgical music merely because I thought it would interest you, you've missed the point of this discussion.

There are admittedly subtle but absolutely vital points to be understood about quality and intent of expression be it musical, verbal, architectural, sculptural or pictorial. Some are sublime, some are merely pretty, some are frivolous but delightful, some are dully didactic, some are obscene, some are banal, some are ingenious, some refined and erudite, some simple and sincere, some are pretentious, too much expression is merely vulgar.

Learning to recognize and appreciate the difference among these various modes of expression is an important part of what it takes to make a civilized human being.

I happen to know a good deal about Music, so I use it as a metaphor for many other things of universal significance.

Cultural Relativism is anathema to Enlightenment.

Did you never read Highbrow Lowbrow, Middebrow? It's a wonderful essay everyone interested in cultural values ought to become acquainted with. I haven't looked it up, but it's probably available via Google.

~ FreeThinke

jez said...

Not sure I agree that tunes are neutral. Could you make "the sun has got his hat on" really dark through arrangement and instrumentation? (especially while preserving the major key)?

Anonymous said...

"Could you make "the sun has got his hat on" really dark through arrangement and instrumentation? (especially while preserving the major key)?"

Not familiar with that particular tune, but probably yes, though you might not recognize it by the time I got through with it.

I once wrote a Fantasia and Fugue on How're Ya Gonna Keep 'Em Down on the Farm After They've Seen Paree? and a Postlude on How Could You Believe Me When I Said I Loved You, When You Know I've been A Liar All My Life? No one got the joke, except a couple of my friends from Juilliard who were sitting in the Congregation that morning.

Did you never experience what Mozart and Dohnanyi did with Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?

You say you appreciate Jazz? So do I! wish I could play it, but my ear's not that good. Anyway, what is Jazz but streams of extreme variation on usually-simple, well-known tunes, which often get "buried" in brilliant figuration or subtly obscured by complex, exotic harmonies?

~ FreeThinke

jez said...

I would say enhanced rather than obscured, in good jazz anyway. There's no requirement for complexity either. Jazz is varied, I think it only needs to contain simultaneous composition and performance to qualify.