Tuesday, November 15, 2011

In an OWS World...

If you agree with OWS that more government control over the economy is the answer, then you must be willing to accept more Solyndras, more Fannie and Freddie failures, and more bailouts of businesses, banks and unions, as they gamble with your money.  


The result will be less entrepreneurship resulting in more expensive goods and services, lower wages, higher taxes and a lower standard of living.

Mark Steyn explains...
My colleague Rich Lowry correctly notes that many of the beleaguered families on the "We are the 99%" websites have real problems.
However, the "occupy" movement has no real solutions, except more government, more spending, more regulation, more bureaucracy, more unsustainable, lethargic pseudo university with no return on investment, more more more of what got us into this hole. (Mark Steyn)
Indeed. Unrepentant capitalist Charles Gasparino reminds us that capitalism's predations on the proletariat are mere trifles when compared to the serial Marxist miseries that have stained humanity and snuffed liberty and the light of reason while slaughtering hundreds of millions:
Don’t try to explain to any of these protesters how those who sought to create a Marxist utopian dream of revolution also gave us the Stalinist purges, Mao’s bloody Cultural Revolution and many other efforts to collectivize thought in the name of economic “justice.” (Gasparino)
Even the benign Western European democratic socialist model is collapsing. Germany is cutting back, and what's left of the safety net comes at a high price: Wage cuts, benefit cuts, compliant unions voluntarily  trading away worker bennies in exchange for no layoffs. Their tax system is grossly un-progressive, with consumption taxes hitting the rich and the poor equally.  A gallon of gasoline costs over six dollars, and everything else, including food and heating oil, is taxed at 19%, and that's on top of the income tax. 

"Call it Crapitalism"

Gasparino visited the socialist squatter's encampment on Wall Street, and came away with this observation...
Also absent was any notice of how the much-hated banks benefited not from free-market capitalism, which would have let them fail in 2008, but from crony capitalism that bailed them out.
The similar cronyism practiced by Trumka and the Obama administration -- massive spending on useless but politically connected businesses like Solyndra, paired with class-warfare rhetoric -- likewise has very little to do with free markets.  (Gasparino)
As John Stossel Says, Occupy Wall Street is Half Right...
If by "capitalism" they mean crony capitalism (let's call it crapitalism), a system in which favored business interests are supported by government, I'm against that, too.
But if they mean the free market, then they are fools. When allowed to work, the market has lifted more people out of the mud and misery of poverty than any government, ever.
I have at least found some common ground with some Wall Street protest supporters. Joe Sibilia, who runs the website CSRWire (Corporate Social Responsibility), told me, "You can't have an environment where people are betting on financial instruments with the expectation that the government is going to bail them out."
So we agree that Wall Street bailouts are intolerable. Now we just have to teach our progressive friends that truly free markets work for the benefit of all.

54 comments:

conservativesonfire said...

It took thirty or more years of intense programing to create today's liberal nimrods. It will take years to reprogram them with the truth.

ecc102 said...

@CoF,

Considering the comments of some of the, shall we say, more Socialist-leaning commenters like JMJ, you are very correct.

Money bad!
Distribute the wealth gooooood!

Even in an equal Socialist society, there will be inequality.

Lincoln said that all men are created equal, and our Constitution guarantees all Americans the freedom to pursue life and liberty. But neither Lincoln nor our Constitution can guarantee success or keep any of us free from corrupted and bankrupt mindsets and abject greed.

Capitalism has its flaws, but they are greatly outnumbered by its potentials. Hence, the expression "The American Dream".

Socialism, however, is a flawed and failed ideology from the get-go, and will lead only to more heartache and oppression. Hence, Adolph Hitler.

These Occupoopers simply need to move to a Socialist nation for a year or so and they will be begging to return to our evil Capitalist country. I mean, seriously, the first time they tried this whole Occupy Movement under a Chavez, they would either be killed or imprisoned. Talk about a wake-up call. Here in our evil corporatist America, their protests are free to be performed without fear of jackbooted thugs coming in with dogs and guns and billy clubs, cracking skulls.

I find it mildly offensive that the freedoms we have in America are simply exploited for ill gain by the leftists.

Ducky's here said...

more Fannie and Freddie failures

--------
I would absolutely support returning to the agencies being government entities. It was absolutely unnecessary to privatize them.
You do know these agencies were once completely government entities and performed their function well, no Many do not and many, like yourself do not understand that the "free market" (LMFAO) failed in this matter.
Even Alan "Mr. Austria" Greenspan admitted as much.

bunkerville said...

With so many Socialist Utopian States out there in our world, I remain puzzled why they are determined to remain in our evil capitalist society. Move on, brother if you hate it so much. Castro looks forward to your arrival.

Ducky's here said...

You may want to thank them, bunkerville. The evidence is in that the natural state of capitalism is monopoly and a concentration of wealth at the top.
As the rest of the world demands its share, our share will drop, America's wealth becomes more concentrated and you lose.

Time to wise up.

ecc102 said...

Oh, listen to the 3 million dollar man! Ducky, you make us all laugh!

Plane tickets are cheap to the Socialist country of your choice, and your capitalistic American money will go a long way!

You are the 1%, Ducky. How's it feel to be the enemy of your own ideology?

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky: Perhaps there was a time when we had sane, honest people running efficient government institutions, but that time is long gone.

The federal government has no business as an operator in the mortgage market. Policeman yes, partner filling the pockets of crony crapitalists like Democrat Franklin Rains, no.

Anywhere in the "free" market of the United states where a monopoly developed, government intervention was behind it.

It is telling that the "trusts" of the late 1800's crowded out competition by lowering prices, which is how the free market works.

Those who could not quash competition on price and performance sought refuge in government protections. That is crony crapitalism.

You're confusing the two.

And Greenspan is not an Austrian, he is a Chicago School monetarist.

Country Thinker said...

i have said for a long time that OWS starts off with some correct observations but goes the absolutely wrong direction with them.

dmarks said...

Ducky said:

"I would absolutely support returning to the agencies being government entities."

They ARE government agencies. However, why do we need them at all?

"no Many do not and many, like yourself do not understand that the "free market" (LMFAO) failed in this matter."

It did not at all. Congress commanded these government agencies (F&F) to support bad loans, which forced banks to make a lot of them.

In a free market, there'd be no Fannie and Freddie. And no huge crisis that these government agencies called.

And the problem was not the partial privitization of these government agencies. Rather, it was bad regulations.

dmarks said...

Ducky said: "The evidence is in that the natural state of capitalism is monopoly and a concentration of wealth at the top."

The opposite is true. Most monopolies are created by government regulations, and are not the natural result of capitalism at all.

"As the rest of the world demands its share, our share will drop"

What you describe is nothing but greed. Pure greed. Instead of demanding their share (a share which really belongs to other people). they should create their own share.

Ducky's here said...

dmarks, who taught you history, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Jay Gould and Andrew Carnegie?

Anonymous said...

It's impossible for any sane person to argue against Mark Steyn, who always bats a thousand.

Too bad insanity has proved so tragically seductive to "The Common Man" and to the so-called "Intelligentsia."

Was Freud, perhaps, correct after all in his assertion that humanity is possessed by a collective Death Wish?

~ FreeThinke

Ducky's here said...

It's insane to say anyone bats a thousand.

Infidel de Manahatta said...

One of the (many) ironies of the OWS movement is that Wall Street and the banks are all solidly blue liberal Democrat.

They were just trying to implement the policies of the National Socialist Democratic Party, which has nothing to do with capitalism.

ecc102 said...

True story, Infidel. I highly recommend anyone who is interested to dig into the campaign contributors to Obama's 2008 bid for President.

Oh no...that's gonna leave a mark.

Hey, look, here it is:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638

Sorry, ladies. No spin was used. These are factual numbers.

ecc102 said...

Now here's John McCain's list of contributors in 2008. Some similarities, to be sure, but pay attention to the amounts given Obama and the amounts given to McCain.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638

ecc102 said...

Sorry! The McCain link is wrong. Here's correct one:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00006424

Ducky's here said...

So Wall Street buys whomever may further their purpose.

Hardly news.

Z said...

Ducky, you're so good at ignoring the point.

By the way, everyone... Isn't "the 99%" beguiling? If the 1% stands for the extremely rich, aren't WE part of that 99%? Trust me, I do NOT agree with most of these people and I rarely poop on cars or doorsteps (Ecc...Occupoopers is a good one), but the OWS people and the media talking about the 99% makes it sound like we're all groveling with gruel cups for porridge and that pesky 1% has everything, doesn't it?

Silverfiddle said...

@ Z: Ducky, you're so good at ignoring the point.

When you can't refute a point, duck it...

Bastiatarian said...

>It's insane to say anyone bats a thousand.

It's even more insane to deny it when it actually happens.

>Cornelius Vanderbilt, Jay Gould and Andrew Carnegie?

Did dmarks write "all"?
Don't skip words. That same mistake consistently causes my less-diligent students to lose points on tests.

Ducky's here said...

What point did I miss Silverfiddle?

I'm curious.

I suspect it has something to do with Obama being the fount of the current problems. That's ridiculous on its face.

Obamacare? Just an extension of the money thrown to health insurers that started with the Bush prescription drug plan which was also unfunded and contributed to Obama's fiscal deficit.

TARP? That was started by Bush and Obama merely continued with Clintoon's economics crew.

For his next trick, Bastiatarian will produce a few monopolies started by government regulation. We're waiting.

Ducky's here said...

... note: The monopoly in the investment banking system brought on by government "deregulation" doesn't count. Don't even go there.

And the percentage of mortgages underwritten by Fannie and Freddie during the bubble dropped significantly so you might want to skip the usual suspects and try using your head.

liberaldude said...

dmarks said: "The opposite is true. Most monopolies are created by government regulations, and are not the natural result of capitalism at all."

Lol, riiight. Name one!

Anonymous said...

Posters aver and aver and aver. Only two so far back up their assertions with any references.

I, personally, have developed an aversion to all this all this averring. Most of us should. Isn't it time that we at the very least insisted on some degree of logical argumentation to back up assertions if not absolute proof?

I'm amazed, amused and confounded too that supposedly reliable sources exist that support conflicting views with contradictory information represented as factual on each side.

How could we ever hope to ascertain whose "facts" may be relied upon and whose "facts" are either false or hopelessly skewed to serve an agenda?

Should we really trust government statistic mills to tell us the truth and give us the whole picture?

Are any of the polls honest?

Is there a single media entity that does not serve a particular point of view to the virtual exclusion of others?

And why is it that both SNOPES and FactCheck.org almost always seem to debunk conservative items as either false or only "partially true," while giving most liberal assertions a pass?

This business of "knowing I'm right, so everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong" must stop.

All we're doing in this country is butting our heads together. The only possible result could be split skulls and addled brains. Nothing good will come of it.

~ FreeThinke

Finntann said...

There is a reason that the statement is "All men are created equal" and not "All men are equal".

Ducky: When was the last time we had a free market?

You want an example of an induced monopoly? BIG PHARMA

An ‘induced (or regulatory driven) monopoly’ derives its singularity as the result of a regulations that create thresholds that are impossible to overcome for new entries into that market. By design, it is used to ‘control’ elements of business in a way often cited by its proponents as a way to strengthen safety, availability, and consistency.

It's the reason you can't buy drugs from Canada at Canadian prices here in the United States.

Want another example?

Big Agra, ie. CONAGRA, Monsanto, ADM, etc.

It's why we don't have family farms anymore.

You've heard of TANSTAAFL? Well more appropriately TANSTAAFM

There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Market.

ecc102 said...

@Ducky,

TARP was peanuts compared to The Great Stimulus Package of 2009.

TARP, which indeed was Bush's albatross, was also co-signed by Obama and McCain. TARP was about 700B and Obama's Stimulus was 787B.

Here's the Wiki links:

TARP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

Obama Stimulus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009

Winner of the "Who can spend more money than the other? Contest"....
Barack H. Obama and the Democrat-controlled 111th Congress!! Woo-hoo!

Every time you blame Bush, you admit failure. Your President is an amateurish community organizer who, as Joe Biden says, is "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy".

My goodness but I love your Democrat/Socialist racism, so cleverly disguised as...um...racism.

Anonymous said...

Dear, Libby Dudu, why can't you see that government is the biggest and truest monopoly of all?

It is government intrusion, interference and intervention in business affairs that has thrown a spanner into the natural order of things. From TR's Trust Busting to government support of Labor to Corporate Welfare in less than a century.

Government's Draconian actions set in motion a long series of chain reactions which appear to have made things go from bad to worse to impossible.

A truly free market -- one not artificially manipulated and propped up by social engineering Voodoo Doodoo -- eventually cleanses itself of corruption, because poor performance is inevitably unprofitable -- or would be were it not for the Angels of Government extracting largesse from taxpayers by main force to donate to shoddy, spoiled, greedy, inefficient operations deemed "too big to fail."

Our world is currently rotating on an axis of bullshit. How much longer could it possibly go on before spinning fatally out of control?

Sorta reminds me of those cartoons where some foolish character who's being chased, runs off the edge of a cliff, keeps moving his feet in mid air, as if there's still ground beneath them, and then realizes he's going to fall -- and nothing can stop him from crashing into the ravine below.

Government intervention in the natural order of things has chased us into just that unenviable position.

Is there life after Socialism?

I dunno. Better stay tuned ...

~ FreeThinke

Finntann said...

On the subject of OWS I made the following comments a few days ago:

OWS is united in anger, not in goals.

For instance, the NYCGA declaration is a list of grievances, not a platform.

Until OWS can formulate a logically coherent platform they are unsupportable for any use other than venting anger.

Why haven't they? My personal viewpoint is that OWS is too diverse, any attempt to conceptualize their goals would result on them turning on each other and they would disintegrate.

And so it starts...


OWS starts to crumble

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/283013/occupy-wall-street-starts-crumble-charles-c-w-cooke

They want a $lice of the Occu-pie

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/they_want_lice_of_the_occu_pie_9xKCxcI4aectFYkafMb8UJ

Dissension among the ranks at Occupy Wall Street

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45285979/ns/us_news-life/t/dissension-among-ranks-occupy-wall-street/

From the MSNBC article:

A meeting of the protest’s general assembly late Sunday descended into yelling and jockeying over who could speak, witnesses said, as protesters living in the Zuccotti Park encampment voiced concerns about financial transparency, feeling underrepresented and not having enough daily resources as winter nears.

The contentious meeting came days after an ad hoc group of protesters held an alternative general assembly and yet others living in the camp formed their own movement.

We are the 99% of the 99%...

NO! We are!

Cheers!

Ducky's here said...

I'll grant you Pharma, Finntann, the latest prescription drug bill was an absolute travesty. Yes.

Agriculture? I think that's a lack of any regulation. "Free trade" agreements have been a boon to agra as well. Fact is the family farm is being destroyed most everywhere. If you want to blame government it's a sin of omission rather than commission. But that doesn't violate the conservative position.

Bastiatarian said...

>For his next trick, Bastiatarian will produce a few monopolies started by government regulation. We're waiting.

Well, it looks like that's already been taken care of, although I would add every other de facto monopoly disguised as heavy regulation. ("Regulation" is just the politically correct misnomer for "usurping control of the private property of others," of course.)

Over 200 volumes and 150,000 pages in the Code of Federal Regulations.
Nope. No totalitarian governmental control here! Move along, slaves!

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky: The Fanjul family has a virtual lock on the sugar industry in America and is protected by sugar import tariffs, hence the explosion of high fructose corn syrup.

Also, the big banking cartels are using government access and influence to starve out main street bankers.

Higher prices for us and local businesses killed. Your government at work

Jersey McJones said...

All of you cons:

Among the constitutional responsibilities of the government are to punish crime, to prevent crime within constitutional boundaries, and to not commit crime itself.

OWS would prefer we adhere to that.

What exactly is your problem with that? The way they express it? Really? What??? Are you spoiled teen-aged gossipers???

JMJ

ecc102 said...

@JMJ,

Many "cons", as you put it, agree with an end to crony-capitalism, for sure. I mean, how awful is it to realize that some corporations do indeed own the GOP and the Democrats? It stinks.

Now, as to us "cons" having a problem with how this OWS movement expresses itself....come on, man. Surely even you are not that dull and ignorant.

Rapes, anti-semitism, violence, vandalism, etc, are all part of this "movement". (Not even you can point to one instance within the hated TEA Party movement that can rival the least of these offenses, so save your breath. I know you want to compare the two.)

Seriously, JMJ, you have said some pretty silly shit, but to wonder why any of us 'have a problem' with the OWS rabble trumps them all. There is no message. There may have been in the beginning, but you know what happens when you gather too many stupid people in one place for too long. Things get ugly.

Sometimes I really wonder if you're just not saying things to play a role.

Z said...

JMJ, ecc says it better than I, but you said "Among the constitutional responsibilities of the government are to punish crime, to prevent crime within constitutional boundaries, and to not commit crime itself."...yet you'll be the first one to scream FOUL when government tries to close down the OWS camps where people are defecating in public, doing drugs, having sex in public and DYING. I'd say those are crimes. It works both ways.

Anonymous said...

Z, ecc, and others,

The way The Right chooses to characterize the OWS situation is almost as one-sided, unbalanced and above all tendentious as the Left's characterization of the Tea Party.

You pick out the ugliest most unfortunate incidents committed by a small percentage of the whole and present that as a true representation of the entire movement.

Somehow we're going to have to stop this partisan factionalizing, and deal with reality instead of the distorted images most observers are using.

"The partisan when engaged in a dispute cares nothing for the rights of the question but only for his own assertions."

~ Socrates c. 350 B.C.

Facts may be facts, but in truth mean very little when isolated from the whole. Facts in and of themselves are not Truth.

~ FreeThinke

Lisa said...

Ironic that the OWS squatters are protesting the capitalist pigs in the banking business while giving the capitalist pigs in the Senate and Congress a free pass.

ecc102 said...

FT,

You said:
"The way The Right chooses to characterize the OWS situation is almost as one-sided, unbalanced and above all tendentious as the Left's characterization of the Tea Party."

I'm not seeking to "characterize" the Occupy Movement, for to do so would mean I would be making assumptions based on emotional leanings.

I simply need to go to YouTube or any number of political sites to find and view actual videos of the Occupy Movement's behaviors. I don't need to spin it or accentuate it. It is all there in living color for the world to see.

I am simply calling it like it is being presented to us. I mean, even some MSM outlets aren't trying to put icing on this movement any longer, and are speaking the truth.

The left can only characterize The TEA Party because there really isn't any solid proof of their accusations against them, ie, racism. Yet I can take 30 seconds and find a video of an Occupier saying, "F*ck America". Nice.

If the Occupoopers don't want America to have a skewed view of their message, then they need to mind their own houses and do a better job keeping their members/adherents in line. Oh, and to stop raping young girls. America doesn't like that.

Ducky's here said...

Silverfiddle, I have to admit you and Finntann got me thinking about monopolies.

Is it a chicken or the egg problem? Does monopoly precede state capitalism? Is democracy possible in a country under state capitalism )to me, clearly no).

I still believe that monopoly must precede but I have an insight into your position and why we are at such odds here. Bottom line: we must reform government and capitalism and right now we do not have the institutions for either, quite the opposite.

Ducky's here said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bastiatarian said...

The latest quote from those fine OWS folks:

"On the 17th, we’re going to burn New York City to the ground...No more talking. They’ve got guns, we’ve got bottles. They’ve got bricks, we’ve got rocks…in a few days you’re going to see what a Molotov cocktail can do to Macy’s."

If this type of statement were isolated, or if the rapes, murders, filth, disregard for others, vandalism, drug use, crudeness, etc., were isolated to one or two incidents, then it might be fair to say that there has been a one-sided or biased characterization. Unfortunately, such behavior is really the only common thread that runs through all of these groups. It's their essence.

That's not "characterization." It's "identification."

MK said...

The idiots at the bottom have no interest in true freedom or capitalism, they just want some free money that someone else worked for. A sort of justifiable thieving.

It wouldn't surprise me if these fools don't even know about Solyndra, your msm is largely hard pressed to say anything that makes their hero obama look like the incompetent bum he really is, so where else will they get their news from, their puppet-masters? They want more Solyndras.

They are ignorant and largely choose to remain so.

MK said...

"On the 17th, we’re going to burn New York City to the ground...No more talking. They’ve got guns, we’ve got bottles. They’ve got bricks, we’ve got rocks…in a few days you’re going to see what a Molotov cocktail can do to Macy’s."

Thanks Bastiatarian. It's to be expected from these vermin, the violent, totalitarian scumbag is part of their DNA and always reveals itself sooner rather than later.

Ducky's here said...

Tie a can on it and stick to AUS, MK.

The park was more sanitary than the freaking J line in the Bowery.

Stick to freaking bungie jumping.

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky,

I find your monopoly comments interesting. I'm working on a monopoly post for next week.

liberaldude said...

WOOOWWW! I haven't seen so much stupidity and disinformation in one place in a looong time! LOL!

Bastiatarian said...

>I haven't seen so much stupidity and disinformation in one place in a looong time!

Well, I guess you're just not too terribly introspective.

Bastiatarian said...

>The park was more sanitary than the freaking J line in the Bowery.

So, what you're saying, is that the J Line is an actual cesspool...

ecc102 said...

@MK,

You said:
"The idiots at the bottom have no interest in true freedom or capitalism, they just want some free money that someone else worked for. A sort of justifiable thieving."

Brilliant comment!

And so you live in Australia. Sweet. I see Ducky is intimidated by your presence. Of course she is.

Comment away, MK! Making observations about the human condition, (or the political sexual disease known as liberalism in America), is an open forum to everyone.

Ducky is just frustrated. Her millions haven't bought her happiness, and to live in the hypocrisy she feels daily for being in the 1% is killing her.

dmarks said...

Liberal said: "WOOOWWW! I haven't seen so much stupidity and disinformation in one place in a looong time! LOL!"

A perfect description of your own comment.

dmarks said...

Liberal: Name one monopoly that isn't the result of government regulation.

dmarks said...

Bast said: "The latest quote from those fine OWS folks"

The OWS folks are too much like Hitler's blackshirts.

Bastiatarian said...

>The OWS folks are too much like Hitler's blackshirts.

But more pathetic and stinky.

Anonymous said...

"You simply need to go to YouTube or any number of political sites to find and view actual videos of the Occupy Movement's behaviors. I don't need to spin it or accentuate it. It is all there in living color for the world to see."

Have you checked sources from the leftist point of view, ecc? You'd never think the two sides were talking about the same phenomenon. There are videos on YouTube purportedly showing Tea Partiers mouthing 'racist' remarks and holding up 'offensive,' racially insensitive signs.

Facts are not Truth, and images can be used along with isolated facts to present a distorted, fundamentally deceptive picture in order to promote an "agenda." (When and how did that become such a dirty word?)

People tend always to believe what they <i<want</i< to believe -- which usually means anything that supports their personal preferences and deeply held prejudices.

Even though it is likely to be painful and perplexing, in the long run we are best served by the Whole Truth. too bad so few have the courage -- or the stomach -- to face it. That's because Truth rarely flatters anyone.

~ FreeThinke