Thursday, December 29, 2011

A Gentle Answer Turneth Away Wrath

The most interesting and intelligent thread of the Year

I have read threads that are more interesting, usually in a weird or twisted way; and there are threads that contain conversation more intelligent than this one. But this thread over at Z's excellent blog, GeeeeeZ!, is an effective combination of the two, and it is a testament to Z’s always excellent topic selection and commentary as well as her patience.

What is it about Ron Paul that makes the crazy train go off the rails?

It started out on the subject of Ron Paul, and slowly degenerated into an angry, snarky shouting match, with Z having to step in to bank the fiery passions. She’s quite a moderator as well as a gracious host, proving true the passage from Proverbs about a gentle answer turning away wrath.

I could see that the thread was causing our beloved Z much anguish, but I’ve got to congratulate her for stimulating such a conversation. Beamish can be insulting, but he’s also very logical and he brings the supporting info for his arguments (which I suspect is what steams his rivals more than the insults.) I tangled with him once, but I’ve got to give the man credit. He knows how to argue his point, and other than the barbed ad-hominem, I was with him all the way on his anti-Ron Paul comments. 

Anyway, Beamish ended up insulting everyone, to the point of driving some commenters away. After some behind the scenes e-mailing between Z and some commenters, Z elicited an apology from him for turning the thread into a barroom brawl, which is no small feat. He sincerely apologized to Z without conceding the point of his argument.

A rare conversation on race that makes sense

The best part of the thread came at the end, when a liberal black man named Net Observer stepped in. I apologize for the labels. I use them only to provide a frame of reference. Mere shorthand tags do not do justice to this wise man, and although a Democrat, he says he is personally conservative, and I believe him. Go read his comments and it will all make sense. 

He said some pretty profound things about race in this country. I had heard the different pieces of his comments from various different people, but he synthesized them and stated them quite eloquently, readily offering that the thoughts were not wholly his own. He displayed a rare quality of being able to put oneself outside the debate, dispassionately analyze it, and then honestly put it back together. He is the rare person who can really see both sides, and articulate it. Go down towards the end of the thread and check out the dialog between him and Kid (a wise man himself). They are decidedly not the cowards that Eric Holder referred to.

Net Observer points out that it is not damning to incidentally share some non-racist views with people who are racist:
Whenever I talk about conservatives sharing common ground with white racialists on various race-based issues, you and other decent conservatives take strong offense. For the record, I don't blame you for taking offense. Frankly, I like the fact that you DO, because it so underlines your seriousness about the ugliness of racial prejudice.
To whites who ask why President Obama, or responsible black men like himself do not straighten out the gangbanger black youth, Net Observer says…
What if said to you, "Z, what are YOU and the other good conservatives doing about those white racialists you share common ground with? Why don't you guys speak out against it more?"
If I did that, ultimately, I think I would be placing an unfair burden on you. Because pragmatically, there's not a whole lot you can do about some independent white racialists having a few conservative opinions. Bottom line, despite the similarities, you have no real connection to those guys.
And like most blacks, I don't have any real connection to those lawless, prison-bound idiots whose skin looks like mine.
He nails the issue here, but does not damn white people with his comments; he is just describing what he sees and hears. It is an excellent explanation...
But the conflicts between blacks and conservatives are mostly based around not the basic facts, but a lack of trust. African-Americans are solid Democrats; which means they lean left. Conservatives don't trust the left.
Conversely, conservatives, unfortunately, share common ground with racialists and racists on issues like immigration, profiling, etc. So, from the point of view of a left-leaning black guy, conservatives look kinda racist.
There are some lessons in all of this... 

First, Z did not respond in kind, but kept her head and calmed things down without resorting to wielding a censorious meat ax. Beamish, although enjoying an extraordinary gift for debating and being in possession of the facts, turns people off with his pin-prickish manner. Finally, a black, liberal Obama voter shows up and displays a cultural insight, eloquence and understanding that are so rare nowadays, and conservatives warm to him.

It was an excellent dialog between Net Observer and Kid, full of Socratic intelligence, candor and goodwill, and Z is to be congratulated for hosting such a forum, even if it does at times cause her to become distraught.

92 comments:

Ducky's here said...

The thread highlights a couple things at z's.

1. Only the left gets censored.

2. The fringe right will not tolerate criticism of Israel. The cowards lay the anti-semitism card in a moment.

3. They hate it when the left or sometimes their own plays the racism card just as casually and irresponsibly against them.

4. They skirt the issue. The Republican field is such a freaking clown car that Governor Olympics seems like a viable candidate.

5. Any thread that mentions Murray Rothbard seriously is in danger of drifting into Libertarian la-la land.

6. The fringe right still hasn't figured out that Obama is a right center corporatist stooge.

7. We will spend all our time name calling and labeling while all the time getting reamed by Kapital.

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky: Free speech is messy, isn't it?

The real clown car is the Obama administration, only they are like those evil clowns in the horror movies.

And all that Kapitalism is messy too, isn't is? Things would be so much better if we were a socialist paradise like Cuba or North Korea...

Ducky's here said...

There you go again. Playing the hyperbole card.

1. North Kore is a freaking insane dictatorship. Nothing more than a buffer that China i using.

2. Cuba is in much better shape than other Caribbean nations. You compare it to what, America? Why not Haiti or the Dominican Republic or Honduras or any of the other "democratic" havens in the region?

Still seems to me that the "z thread" was consumed trying to justify the Republican field which we all know in our heart is a disaster. We live in a culture that takes Herman "Let's see, Libya..." Cain seriously. Not good.

John Carey said...

I visited the site and read down through the comments Silver and I must say it appears that conservatives are deeply divided during this primary season. I feel this is a healthy thing to a point. Candidates’ finally are talking about issues such as ending the FED and shrinking the size of government and this has helped shape the conservative narrative. You and I don’t always agree, but it doesn’t mean we’re not on the same team. Many of our Founding Fathers were on opposite ends of the political spectrum in regards to the role government should play in our lives. Some believed government should play a central role in the business of our states and lives, while others argued that government was an imperfect beast that even when shackled would undoubtedly always try to break the shackles that bind it and usurp individual liberty. Patrick Henry believed the States should be supreme over a Federal government while Alexander Hamilton believed the complete opposite. Both ardent defenders of freedom with a completely different view point on the role government should play in our lives.

As you know I support Ron Paul in the primaries because of his views on liberty and I will more than likely vote for him in the primaries; however I do have the big picture in mind. I’m fully on board and understand that this country cannot afford another 4 years of Obama. If the candidate I support does not win the Republican nomination then I will throw my support behind the one who does because the end goal is making Obama a one term President. I don’t feel like this is compromising my principles, because the main objective is the advance of liberty and the conservative agenda and this will never happen as long as Obama is President. People need to keep things in perspective. The primary season is the time to have these disagreements and shape the narrative. Yes it get's ugly at times and yes we will disagree but its all part of the process. The process will create deep and sharp divisions at times, but this should not be the overall focus. We agree on 80 percent of the issues and 100 percent on making Obama a one term President. This is what we should be taking away from these disagreements and understand that our disagreements are designed to help shape the conservative narrative we want to advance. That’s my 2 cents for what it’s worth. I hope this comment adds value to the conversation.

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky: You're the one constantly railing against "Kapital." What else am I to infer?

Never been to Cuba (other than the piece that we own), but I have lots of Cuban friends (some military) who have visited relatives there, and they have also been to places like Honduras, Panama and the Dominican Republic. There is no comparison. Cuba is worse.

Again, I suggest you put down The Nation and actually go visit some of these places.

So what's your alternative to "Kapital?"

Silverfiddle said...

John: Very well said. While disagreeing (in an agreeable manner) on particulars, we both have our attention fixed on the big picture.

bunkerville said...

This will be the perfect icing on the cake. Lets link the GOP to racism. Now that will be something new, won't it? We are determined to self-imolation.Both feet in. Perfect.

beamish said...

The thread highlights a couple things at z's.

1. Only the left gets censored.


You should see the less-than-gracious comments I posted in that thread that didn't pass muster.

Z polices her blog efficiently.


2. The fringe right will not tolerate criticism of Israel. The cowards lay the anti-semitism card in a moment.

As I said in the thread there to a Paultardian anti-Semite, I frequently criticize Israel for their generous supplying of food, water, medicine, and electricity to Hamas and Fatah. These Psuedostinian terrorist enemies of Israel are not manufacturing the guidance systems of their meatbombs on their own dime.

Why do you criticize Israel?

3. They hate it when the left or sometimes their own plays the racism card just as casually and irresponsibly against them.

We hate it when the racism card is played when no racism is involved.

4. They skirt the issue. The Republican field is such a freaking clown car that Governor Olympics seems like a viable candidate.

On this, I apply the [Sir Edmund] Burke "eschewing ideology" test. If a candidate has to spend one debate or more claiming to be "more conservative" than her, er, their rivals, she, er, they don't have a whit of a hint about what conservatism is.

5. Any thread that mentions Murray Rothbard seriously is in danger of drifting into Libertarian la-la land.

I mentioned Murray Rothbard only as one of Ron Paul's more prominent left-wing influences. Giddy cheerleaders for Krushchev and Che Guevara hardly represent essential reading for libertarianism or conservatism.

6. The fringe right still hasn't figured out that Obama is a right center corporatist stooge.

...as evidenced by union thug lord Richard Trumka's pro-Obama re-enactments of the Nuremberg rallies? Or the glowing praise the Communist Party USA reserves for Obama?

7. We will spend all our time name calling and labeling while all the time getting reamed by Kapital.

...and that's just the minimum wagers that clicked "I'm in" for Obama 2012 and spend all day trolling blogs with copy-and-pasted highlights from Attack Watch.

beamish said...

Here's an (off-topic?) thanks to Silverfiddle for personally inviting me here to participate in a (the?) brutal intellectual vivisection of Ron Paul.

I'll try to leave Ron Paul's waterboys relatively emboweled.

Silverfiddle said...

Beamish. Thanks... I think...

Unlike you, I don't attack people personally for their beliefs and convictions, but I do enjoy a lively debate, and you are a master at it.

Silverfiddle said...

And also, the point of this post was not to attack Paul or his supporters, but to give Z a pat on the back for running a great blog.

I also thought Net Observer's comments and the dialog between him and Kid at the end of the thread was worthy of sharing with others.

It should be required reading for Eric Holder and race hustlers he enables, along with the race card screamers at msnbc, daily kook, etc...

beamish said...

I like Net Observer, alot. I think he might wince at you labelling him a "liberal Democrat" though.

I save my "personal attack" arsenal for (in this particular context) the "Ron Paul's monetary policy would screw the Jews*" types that pop up in virtually every discussion of the esteemed Representative of Fnordville. And usually in response and reply, not pre-emptiveness. I prefer rational judo over game-fishing in toilets.

(* = an actual, and typical Stormfront forum musing)

Anonymous said...

A FEW BITS OF USEFUL PHILOSOPHY


"Don't confuse me with facts, what I want is the Truth."

~ Anonymous


Facts are ventriloquists’ dummies. Sitting on a wise man’s knee they may be made to utter words of wisdom; elsewhere, they say nothing, or talk nonsense, or indulge in sheer diabolism.


~ Aldous Huxley (1894–1963), British author. Bruno Rontini’s notes, in Time Must Have a Stop, ch. 1 (1944).


"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts—for support rather than illumination."

~ Andrew Lang (1844–1912), Scottish author. Quoted in The Harvest of a Quiet Eye, Alan L. Mackay (1977).


"There lies, God-damned lies, and then there are statistics."

~ Mark Twain


"Avoid loud and aggressive persons -- they are a vexation to the spirit. ..."

~ Max Ehrmann - from Desiderata

Silverfiddle said...

FT: The last part of Time Must Have a Stop, criticized by Huxley haters, is actually full of good stuff.

Beamish:

@ "I like Net Observer, alot. I think he might wince at you labelling him a "liberal Democrat" though."

That's why I apologized in advance for the labels. A poor shorthand for such a thoughtful man. I haven't had contact with him outside that thread, and he appears to not fit neatly into any category.

Anonymous said...

I was a little unsure about the quotation from "Desiderata," so I looked it up. Well known as it already is the entire text seems eminently worth sharing -- especially at this time of the year when it's the custom to collect our thoughts and make appropriate resolutions for the New Year:


Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.


As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.


Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.


Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery.


But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection.


Neither be critical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.


Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings.


Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.


And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.


With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy.


~ Max Ehrmann - 1927 (emphasis added)


May the NEW YEAR bring us less confusion, less contention, less accusation, less anxiety, greater trust, greater insight, more benevolence, more courage, and a clearer sense of purpose and direction.

~ FreeThinke

beamish said...

!

Huxley-philic blogging? I should have beer here more often. :D

Z said...

Silverfiddle, I just came by to see what's up (as I do every day) and this really REALLY surprised me. It was a very tough day with that thread and I'm not sure I handled it quite like you kindly say but I very much appreciate this amazing post.

Beamish, thanks....that's right, I do delete the Right, too. I don't call it censorship because that generally means opinions are blocked and that will never happen at my place: I don't delete much but I do generally only when the comments are so snide and ugly I don't want them there, when people or institutions I respect are demeaned beyond my willingness to read it, or when other of my commenters are bashed too hard. Some can take it and give it back pretty good, but most are too polite to and if they want to get into it more, they can do it at their place, I don't want it at mine.

net will wince at 'liberal democrat'....I had to smile when I read that because I've had a harder and harder time seeing much conservatism left in him, but he refers to himself as more a social liberal and fiscal conservative! I've known him for about 12 years via FrontPageMagazine's once-excellent comments section and treasure his friendship.

As I do yours, SF...thanks very, very much for this. It meant a lot. Sorry this comment got so long; I tried not to. Guys will be thinking "Man, listen to her go on...never compliment a WOMAN!" :-)

Ducky's here said...

Ducky: You're the one constantly railing against "Kapital." What else am I to infer?

------

Well, let's start with this. Kapital and "market economy" are NOT synonymous. Capitalism goes well beyond the market economy and when allowed to run wild ultimately becomes monopolistic and anti competitive.

Please infer that.

I am probably most at odds with you in considering military to be among the most brainwashed among us and sufficiently jingoistic that their opinions have to be filtered. In your case you're an intelligent individual so you have to be allowed to spread some light but you are very prone to spreading a pile of manure when you start this bull about "freedom".
Our history has the left to thank for a lot of freedom and in denying that (I believe you do) it reflects on your military brainwashing.

As I once wrote on z's blog and was roundly criticized, Martin Luther King did more for freedom than the marines. I stand by it and also agree with Ron Paul that our military causes a lot of mischief.

It pains me to listen to young kids talk about "giving Iraq a chance for freedom". These are decent intelligent individuals. Where did they get so freaking turned around that they believe that manure?

So we'll continue to shill for Israel and big oil and stooges like Beamish will continue to scream "anti-semite". You know, the usual politically correct right wing bullshit.

beamish said...

net will wince at 'liberal democrat'....I had to smile when I read that because I've had a harder and harder time seeing much conservatism left in him, but he refers to himself as more a social liberal and fiscal conservative! I've known him for about 12 years via FrontPageMagazine's once-excellent comments section and treasure his friendship.

I'm still getting to know Net Observer (and I hope he pops by here!) but he seems the sort that emphasizes that European "classical liberalism" and American conservatism are (or at least once were) virtually the same thing.

As for "social conservatism," fewer more egregious oxymorons have ever entered the political lexicon. ;)

Z said...

I emailed net, I hope he'll come by.

Beamish, 'social conservatism'....give a definition of your own, please! x

Silverfiddle said...

@Ducky: "Capitalism goes well beyond the market economy and when allowed to run wild ultimately becomes monopolistic and anti competitive."

I assume that's straight out of Marx? (Seriously, not trying to be snarky)

So tell me when this has happened in the real world, other than aided by government intervention?

I share your admiration of Dr. King. He is an American hero and our nation forever owes him a debt of gratitude.

Finally, it is twisted listening to a rich man in America badmouth freedom...

Ducky's here said...

@silverfiddle -- @Ducky: "Capitalism goes well beyond the market economy and when allowed to run wild ultimately becomes monopolistic and anti competitive."

I assume that's straight out of Marx?
-----

Not entirely although it's more explicit in Marx.

Classical economists like Adam Smith and Ricardo certainly start hinting at it.

It's a relatively new phenomenon that thinks unbridled capitalism is benign. Really picked up steam with non economist shills like William F. Buckley and Rand. Polemicists or in Rand's case seriously neurotic.

dmarks said...

Ducky said: "2. The fringe right will not tolerate criticism of Israel. The cowards lay the anti-semitism card in a moment."

The antisemitism card is typically played by those who "criticize" Israel, since the vast majority of the criticism is in fact based in antisemitism. Most of the "criticism" is cribbed from neo-Nazis, or Nazis of the old stripe, from denying the rights of Israelis to exist to demanding that Israel has no right to defend itself.

Your claims, are in fact, typical of rabid antisemites.

"6. The fringe right still hasn't figured out that Obama is a right center corporatist stooge."

Of course they have not. Because he is left-wing, and is not one of the tiny un-influential number of corporatists.

beamish said...

Z,

You know, the toes I gleefully stomp on ;)

There's a pretty clear historical picture that "social conservatism" (perhaps only slightly inadvertently) helped Frankly Demented Roosevelt create the American welfare state. (Even Ronald Reagan was an unrepentant "New Deal" advocate.) In the late 1920's / early 1930's, there was a MASSIVE campaign in churches both Catholic and Protestant to give "Christian" imprimatur to Hoover and Roosevelt's Great Depression entitlement program Ponzi schemes. In effect, churches abdicated their institutional community / social service roles to the Church of Deficit Spending - Medicare Reformed. This, when getting off of Ron Paul's beloved gold standard forty-something years before we did would have gotten America out of the global Great Depression faster (instead of dead last.)

"Social conservatives" seek top-down government solutions to their particular cultural nits to pick, and when successful (Social Security, Medicare, individually mandated Obamacare, etc.) their good intentions really lay down the asphalt for the road we arrived in fiscal Hell on.

To me, "social conservatism" and fiscal conservatism are philosophically and ideologically incompatible.

Anyone who fills the blank of "government should ______ " with anything other than "go @#$@ itself" is wandering off far away from the conservative front lines, IMHO.

beamish said...

As I once wrote on z's blog and was roundly criticized, Martin Luther King did more for freedom than the marines.

And here I was about to wonder aloud how Martin Luther King blockaded Confederate ports and seized military contraband bound for pro-slavery inssurectionists in the Civil War.

I stand by it and also agree with Ron Paul that our military causes a lot of mischief.

Yeah, that ol' "tyrant" Abe Lincoln sure did rob seditionists of their habeas corpus protections. But you should see what Jefferson Davis did to the "nigrahs" in his yard.

It pains me to listen to young kids talk about "giving Iraq a chance for freedom". These are decent intelligent individuals. Where did they get so freaking turned around that they believe that manure?

Oh, I don't know? Internet video of Saddam Hussein's political rivals exploding in industrial shredders, perhaps? Good thing he didn't waterboard them.

So we'll continue to shill for Israel and big oil and stooges like Beamish will continue to scream "anti-semite". You know, the usual politically correct right wing bullshit.

What's Chinese exploitation of America's Gulf of Mexico oil reserves have to do with your hatred of Jews?

Z said...

Beamish :"Anyone who fills the blank of "government should ______ " with anything other than "go @#$@ itself" is wandering off far away from the conservative front lines, IMHO."

You just crack me up! and yes, I see your points on Soc. Cons. good one, thanks.

DUcky; It's rough to see things so black/white. Of course the Republican field isn't the best of Republicans; the problem is any of them is better than what we've got.

As far as the Marines and MLK, Jr and FREEDOM: that can't be black/white, either....context is everything and, to millions of people, the Marines mean freedom all over the world (I know that Jews in Germany sure feel that way) and nobody's negating MLK Jr's attempts at freeing the minds of blacks and whites just because one also honors the Marines.

net observer said...

Wow, I'm afraid to say anything else. I don't want to hurt my current poll numbers =)

I owe it all to Z and her unwavering hardcore right-wing friends =)

and beam's right. "Liberal" is not a term of endearment for me. But I understand the gentleman, so it's cool.

I don't know a ton about Mr. Steyn but I am very aware of him. He reminds me of Christopher Hitchens in one way (no, not the accent =)). Like Hitchens, he may irritate the heck out of you on certain issues, but at no point can you ever honestly deny the man's depth and seriousness as a thinker.

I genuinely appreciate this very special Xmas gift.

Anyway, I gotta get back to watching Isha Sesay. Er, umm, I mean, "the news" =)

98ZJUSMC said...

Ducky says: Really picked up steam with non economist shills like William F. Buckley and Rand.


You call two individuals who could. effortlessly, beat you senseless with every sentence you utter, shills?

Really.....hmmm.

Oh,...and voicing you're obvious disdain for the military is really not necessary. I think everyone can see it quite clearly. The Marines are in the business of protecting freedom, not enabling it or preaching about it. You would have to ask each individual one about chasing hookers in their hotel rooms after speeches.

Just don't gripe about your hospital bills.

Elmers Brother said...

What do you know about the military duhkkster? Ya dim bulb.

Ducky's here said...

They showed p in droves, Silverfiddle. This is the nature of trying to ebate the right

@Dmarks --
"6. The fringe right still hasn't figured out that Obama is a right center corporatist stooge."

Of course they have not. Because he is left-wing, and is not one of the tiny un-influential number of corporatists.

Translated, because I said so and I love creating tautologies.

@Dmarks -- Your claims, are in fact, typical of rabid antisemites.

Notice how he adds "rabid". Notice how he doesn't delinete my supposed infractions. My statement was that criticism of Isreal is labeled antisemitism.
Q.E.D like little bots they walk into a straight right.

@98ZJUSMC -- Nothing but the usual ad hominem and the steaming pi,e of crap about protecting my freedom.
Yeah right, brainwashed, believe whatever makes you feel you have purpose and continue on in the lame spirit of seriousness.

beamish said...

May I take my chokes off? ;)

=====

Ducky,

If you are sincere in your search for an honest, respectful, truthful discussion, you need to demonstrate that you're acting in good faith and freely admit that you are, like all leftists that came before you, fully aware of the incontrovertible fact that you're an imbecile.

That Barack Obama has not (yet) begun seizing people's property and businesses and railroading them and their families off to extermination camps is a rather poor proof that Obama is not left-wing. Even the infamous Progressive left-wing German labor activist Adolf Hitler took five years to do that.

Proof said...

"Progressive left-wing German labor activist". Heh. That's good! I may have to borrow that (with attribution, of course!)

beamish said...

I tell it like it is, Proof. Seems a waste a time not to.

Elmers Brother said...

Cat got your tongue duhkkky or are you in a wifi dead spot after the dear leader's funeral?

The military is the most APOLITICAL agency in the government.

Elmers Brother said...

I am probably most at odds with you in considering military to be among the most brainwashed among us and sufficiently jingoistic that their opinions have to be filtered.

and you don't consider comments like these ad hominems?

Really duhkkky, the military never told us what to think, just what to do. Unless you've ever served how could you possibly understand.

Elmers Brother said...

duhkkky,

Aren't you the same one who thought, hehehehe, that there was an ultra religious faction of the US military that was going to overthrow the government and set up a theocracy?

Sorry...man, you really can't be taken seriously.

Elmers Brother said...

.....their opinions have to be filtered.

free speech much duhkkkleberry?

Finntann said...

On one point I have to agree with Ducky, I am very much afeared that the choice will boil down to do you want the clown in the red car or the clown in the blue car.

As far as "our military causes a lot of mischief", you are very naive if you think the military is causing (note that I did not say ivolved in) mischief. What is it you think the mischief is that the military is doing that is not sanctioned by State and ordered by the Commander in Chief?

If you think it is acting on its own... well than all I can say is be afraid, be very afraid, Obama and Ron Paul are the least of your worries.

Just an observation, but something I keep telling myself over and over again, not always successfully...

When you need to resort to labelling, name calling, and insults you've already lost your argument.

As far as Ron Paul goes, all I can say in his defense is he is definitely different than the other clowns in the car, but in a “You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?” kind of way.

Cheers!

beamish said...

As far as "our military causes a lot of mischief", you are very naive if you think the military is causing (note that I did not say ivolved in) mischief. What is it you think the mischief is that the military is doing that is not sanctioned by State and ordered by the Commander in Chief?

You make an excellent point, Finntann.

War is diplomacy's older, wiser brother after all.

Z said...

Beamish "War is diplomacy's older, wiser brother after all."
I get that....As big a fan as I am of our amazing military, I'd like it to be quite the opposite...that diplomacy is wiser, huh?

Elmers Brother said...

Believe me Z so does the military

beamish said...

Z,

I get that....As big a fan as I am of our amazing military, I'd like it to be quite the opposite...that diplomacy is wiser, huh?

War give diplomacy its vigor and honesty.

What good, for example, would telling Iran (diplomatically) that if they blockade the Straits of Hormuz we'll put their navy on the bottom of the Persian Gulf and bomb their cities until they're sponging their armpits for hookah water... if they can't look out their portholes and see a US Navy carrier battle group waving at them?

For that matter, what good is telling an unruly child that they're on the precipice of a righteous ass-whoopin if they don't immediately and unconditionally change their behavior... if you're going to let them run the roost and give them ice cream for it?

beamish said...

I hear Saddam Hussein is complying with our diplomatic efforts now. ;)

Kid said...

Thank you very much for the compliment Silverfiddle.

I really enjoyed and respected Netobserver's comments.

Silverfiddle said...

Kid: Your comments were wise as well. It was an excellent colloquy.

Z said...

I guess I just mean that war should be the last choice and diplomacy should come first.
Then shoot!

beamish said...

I hear Saddam Hussein is complying with our diplomatic efforts now. ;)"

You're in not so rare form!:-)

Ducky's here said...

@Elmo -- duhkkky,

Aren't you the same one who thought, hehehehe, that there was an ultra religious faction of the US military that was going to overthrow the government and set up a theocracy?

-------
The presence of fundamentalists in the officer corps and at the military academies is hardly a secret.

They are willing vehicles for the profoundly vulgar doctrine of American exceptionalism.

You get a group that is convinced America is the chosen nation until the temple is rebuilt and you end up with a group that is prone to mischief.

Of course we are "privatizing" the military and hiring plenty of mercenary goons. The mercenaries will always disappoint us.

Did you enjoy Bloomberg's comment that the NYPD is his private army? We have been militarizing our police forces so that anything that disturbs Kapital or compliant citizens like yourself Elmo will be contained.

No surprise that the pepper sparay Pig was ex military, right Elmo?

And please, don't imply that because I don't reply to your bullshit immediately implies I'm cowed by your kneejerk jingoism.

Elmers Brother said...

Did you enjoy Bloomberg's comment that the NYPD is his private army? We have been militarizing our police forces so that anything that disturbs Kapital or compliant citizens like yourself Elmo will be contained.

Opposed to what duhkkkky? your version of the KGB keeping those "jingoistic" veterans from expressing their free speech?


The presence of fundamentalists in the officer corps and at the military academies is hardly a secret.

I know how that faith, love and hope thing can be kinda scary for you duhkkky.

Oh please duhkkky do tell what Bloomberg's "Army" has to do with jingoistic veterans?

Jingoism...the only thing I mentioned that could be halfway construed as jingoism was your foolish comment about censoring people who have served in the military. Lots of luck with that one Stalin.

Ever been to a church service on a military base duhkkkster? You could count the number of parishioners on one hand. I celebrated Easter in Iraq, it was me, the chaplain and the chaplain's assistant. You'll be hard presssed to prove any of that bullshit about a hard right religious coup de'tat from the military. That colander on your head needs a little tuning.

Ever stop to ask why we are privatizing the military? Perhaps it's because the country won't support a draft. Would you prefer that? I know the services would suffer if the draft were reinstated.

You get a group that is convinced America is the chosen nation until the temple is rebuilt and you end up with a group that is prone to mischief.

It's all conjecture duhkkkster. Christians in the military does not a theocracy make. Want to meet some real mischief? Why don't you take a hard look at those groups you were feeding at OWS. YOu know the ones who were taking a dump on people's lawns, police cars, stealing, raping and breaking all kinds of laws...talk about your mischief.

When did the fundamentalists take over the NYPD? Who's in charge? How often do they hold services? Is it just on Sunday or every time they're busting heads at OWS? Do they take a collection? Honestly man, who can take you seriously?

Elmers Brother said...

We have been militarizing our police forces so that anything that disturbs Kapital or compliant citizens like yourself Elmo will be contained.

In case you haven't noticed the police have always been a paramilitary group.

Elmers Brother said...

You can borrow this duhkkkky.

Elmers Brother said...

No surprise that the pepper sparay Pig was ex military, right Elmo?

really? Ex-military...holy shiite Batman...that must mean what? ALL VETERANS ARE PEPPER SPRAYING PIGS?

Elmers Brother said...

It looks to me duhkkky like you're the fringe, you know the type

the one who wants to censor, stereotype, and throw ad hominems

and the only one who is a hypocrite here is you....making 6 figures and blaming Kapital

Elmers Brother said...

And please, don't imply that because I don't reply to your bullshit immediately implies I'm cowed by your kneejerk jingoism

BTW No one expects any reply from you, you dolt. You usually throw a bomb, hijack a thread and leave.

Z said...

Sadly, Ducky leaves every time I ask "if America isn't exceptional, by definition, which country IS?" Tata, Ducky.

Until lately, every country in the world's thought we were exceptional...but not Ducky :-)

Anonymous said...

The thread SilverFiddle recommended at GeeeeeZ -- and linked above -- is well worth perusing on many different levels.

The atmosphere while predominantly strained and unpleasant, was full of surprises some of them astonishingly satisfying.

I'd advise everyone not to miss it.

"He who troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind."

It;s always reassuring to see the Bible proved apt in real life situations.

~ FreeThinke

beamish said...

I guess I just mean that war should be the last choice and diplomacy should come first.
Then shoot!


Well, yes. But... don't make any diplomatic efforts from a position of bluster or impotence.

"We're going to bomb your country until the ever-decreasing number of survivors write us personally to thank us for killing their families if you don't comply with our demands" is bluster and impotence, unless of course you have the demonstrated capacity and willingness to utterly and unflinchingly follow through.

War as diplomacy's older brother is an apt analogy in this playground world. "My brother can, and will kick your ass" as it were.

beamish said...

Ducky,

They are willing vehicles for the profoundly vulgar doctrine of American exceptionalism.

"Vulgar doctrine of American exceptionalism?"

It is not vulgar that God created the universe, and likely populated many worlds with all manner of bug-eyed lizardoids, so that America will always have a supply of asses to kick.

It is simply evident. :P

Where's your mealymouthed Trotskyite "the struggle is eternal" militancy now, chucklehead?

beamish said...

Elbro,

and the only one who is a hypocrite here is you....making 6 figures and blaming Kapital

To be fair, 2 of those figures are Play-Doh sculptures.

Alligator said...

"The presence of fundamentalists in the officer corps and at the military academies is hardly a secret."

If you mean fundamentalists like Major Hasan, Pfc Abdo, Sgt. Karim Akbar or Chaplain Abdul-Rasheed Muhammad (involved with Muslim World League with ties to Al Queda) I'm with you. Granted the last two are non-com, but they did cause casualties are nearly so.


"They are willing vehicles for the profoundly vulgar doctrine of American exceptionalism."

So Duck, another way of wording that would be that we are no better than North Korea, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Democratic Republic of Congo, Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, Guatemala, Bosnia,....etc., etc.

"You get a group that is convinced America is the chosen nation until the temple is rebuilt and you end up with a group that is prone to mischief."

What group is this? What kind of mischief? It ought to be easy to name some names and ranks. What Bible verse says America is a chosen nation? What is this connection between America and the temple? Is it the temple the Mormons say will be built in Independence Missouri? I'm intrigued by your accusation - specifics please.

Finntann said...

Honestly Ducky, 25 years in the military and I could count the number of fundamentalists I met without taking my shoes off.

Thinking hard and discounting the Chaplain Corps, I can come up with one Colonel, a Lieutenant Colonel, a Master Sergeant, ,a Technical Sergeant, a Staff Sergeant, and a Senior Airman (and he was Morman). Maybe two Staff Sergeants if you want to count the guy I worked with who was kicked out of a Baptist seminary as religious.

Most were areligious, many were irreligious. I can truthfully say I met far more New Age folks and far more atheists than fundamentalists. Hell, in twenty five years I probably worked with half a dozen Wiccans (oddly, or perhaps not, they were all female).

I don't think you have anything to worry about in regards to a military staged theocratic coup.

Cheers!

beamish said...

I find it a truckload of disingenuous hearing a mackerel snapper like Ducky smear anyone as "theocrats."

dmarks said...

Duck said: "They are willing vehicles for the profoundly vulgar doctrine of American exceptionalism."

Hardly "vulgar", and actually well informed considering the savage and brutal backwards tyrants we are up against.

"We have been militarizing our police forces so that anything that disturbs Kapital or compliant citizens like yourself Elmo will be contained."

Kapital has nothing to do with anything. Except perhaps fascists like you who want the ruling elites to have more and more power over the average citizen because a few of these citizens might be people who worked really really hard and got a lof of gain from their own efforts (wealthy capitalists) and you think that government's #1 job should be cutting these people down.

None of this is surpising from you, since you have outed yourself as a racist (anti-semite) who thinks it is OK to bash Jews as long as it is couched in code words ("criticizing Israel").

Always On Watch said...

I haven't read through all the comments here, but must say something about the following:

Beamish ended up insulting everyone

Beamish doesn't get on my nerves.

I guess that I've developed a tough skin after 6+ years of blogging.

He and I don't agree on everything. But so what?

I was involved in that thread over at Z's site. Yes, some commenters got all pissed off and departed. Now, I've been known to bow out of certain threads, but I've never boycotted any blog that I frequent because of a heated thread.

Now, I'll go back to reading the post here more carefully -- and the comments too.

Always On Watch said...

Beamish to Duck:

If you are sincere in your search for an honest, respectful, truthful discussion, you need to demonstrate that you're acting in good faith and freely admit that you are, like all leftists that came before you, fully aware of the incontrovertible fact that you're an imbecile.

That's the Beamish whom I know and love!

Always On Watch said...

List of Ron Paul Supporters

I'm not sure of the time frame.

But I do note that Klansman David Duke is on that list.

98ZJUSMC said...

Finntann Says: I don't think you have anything to worry about in regards to a military staged theocratic coup.

He must have seen a review on Ralph Peters book and had nightmares.

98ZJUSMC said...

Yes Ducky, we even protect yours. We lump that in with: "As long as we're here, the useless jackasses, too."

I'm sorry your quest for seriousness isn't going too well. Perhaps a Fresca would help?

98ZJUSMC said...

Oh,....and to paraphrase Ducky's favorite President:

"Leftists wander aimlessly through life wondering if they made a difference, I don't have that problem. I am reminded of that fact constantly."

Anonymous said...

Confucious say,

"Man who make more heat than light should live in igloo."

Contributed by FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

Ultimate Wisdom of the Ages:

People who live in glass houses should never throw stones."

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

~ FreeThinke

beamish said...

But I do note that Klansman David Duke is on that list [of Ron Paul supporters]

Regardless of Paul's courted favor among hatemongers and terrorists, where's the economists?

That list is not exactly an Art Laffer seal of approval on his economic acumen.

Z said...

AOW, Yes, I recommend you read the threads closer; very little to do with thin skinned. I don't want to get into this again here, so that's all I'll say! And I'm the one who lost at least two readers; only one of whom commented often but he was a REALLY fresh voice and I hated to lose him. People don't want to react in (un)kind; I get that.

xx

Z said...

Wow, just got an email saying yet another blogger's not only leaving geeez but giving up his politics blog because HE didn't like what that thread brought out in him in response to nasty comments to him. Yikes.

beamish said...

Z,

Maybe you could announce that I was shot at dawn. ;)

Always On Watch said...

Z,
Well, I guess that my skin is inordinately tough.

Of course, as you can probably tell, I consider every comment I write very carefully before I hit publish.

Anonymous said...

Alex DeLarge, the viciously sadistic juvenile delinquent in A Clockwork Orange was passionately devoted to Beethoven's music. "My lovely Ludwig Van," as Alex called him.

Does this necessarily mean that Beethoven's Ninth Symphony should be regarded as a dangerous influence on youthful minds, and therefore a menace to society?

Flippant, sarcastic replies will not be considered worthy of further development.

~ FreeThinke

Silverfiddle said...

FreeThinke: Point well taken, but I still find it disturbing all the Kucinic leftists, dope smoking anarchists, neo-nazis and white supremacists Ron Paul attracts.

Z said...

Beamish, I don't feel I can blog what I want to blog anymore; let me know who wins the dual. :-)

Anonymous said...

All right, SilverFiddle, but what about the crazies who would have us believe that Jesus and Charles Dickens were Marxists before Marx was even a gleam in his poppa's eye?

There are an awful lot of good things under the sun that get misconstrued, misinterpreted, misused and misnamed -- including sex.

That doesn't mean we should be expected to give them up.

If all these vicious, politically-motivated allegations and insinuations from rabid, power-mad lunatics can sink interesting, intelligent, creative thinkers like Ron Paul and Newt Gingrich, why couldn't The Reverend Jeremiah Wright of God-Damn, America fame, a KENYAN COMMIE FATHER, a loose-living lunatic mother, and domestic terrorist Bill Ayers sink Obama? ----- And why in HEAVEN'S name wasn't Monica Lewdinsky able to finish off Bill Klintoon?

There's something rotten in our Statist Marxism -- and it ISN'T Ron Paul.

Why in HELL are the supposedly good guys busily trying to kill each other off, while the the really bad guys keep walking away with the contents of the store unimpeded?

Sorry, my friend, but the Republican Establishment suffers from a sever case of cranio-rectal vision. If get saddled with another CYPHER candidate in the tradition of Bob Dole, the Bushes and John McPain, I may just pull up stakes, auction off the old plantation, grab whatever I can get, and sit out my sunset years swilling down rum in the tax-free Bahamas.

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

"... I don't feel I can blog what I want to blog anymore ..."

Z, I wish you didn't feel that way. In my admittedly unsolicited and never humble opinion that's just tantamount to letting the bad guys win.

I, personally, don't believe in censorship, as you know, and occasionally wax totally outrageous just to prove I still can -- and for no other reason --, but when bitter sarcasm, insolence, disrespect, vindictiveness and sadistic cruelty persistently emanate from a particular source, you do have the power to delete at will -- and OTHERS have the power to IGNORE or OSTRACIZE.

Please don't allow yourself to be cowed into submission by the perverse aggressiveness certain individuals with warped characters habitually exhibit.

Be not afraid, and be of good cheer.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Your old friend,

~ FT

beamish said...

Beamish, I don't feel I can blog what I want to blog anymore; let me know who wins the dual. :-)

I once had a blogging acquaintance that could sometimes even manage to be a treat to read, who in a disagreement with me went off the deep end and began calling me a "grandma killer" and continuously spamming my blog with sock puppets until I shut down commenting.

This former blogging acquaintance began stalking me, harassing me at another blogging acquaintance's blog. That particular blogger I thought would understand the problem I was having with the aforementioned former acquaintance that had taken up stalking me, herself having been spammed continuously for over a year by a particularly obnoxious Paultard troll that began calling her a "slut" and other torridly puerile names.

When I attempted to bring the actions of the former aquaintance that was stalking and harassing me and provoking me to shut down interaction at my blog to the blog hostess that was providing a platform for him to continue to harass me and hijack threads on her blog to do so, her reply to me was something like "I don't care."

She too began joining in with the former acquaintance's slanders and harassment of me.

I don't know what advice to give you about your blog, Z. But please, whatever you do, please don't mistake my long reply for giving a shit.

Anonymous said...

The brain within its groove
Runs evenly and true --
But let a splinter swerve --
’T were easier for you
To put the water back
When floods have slit the hills --
And scooped a turnpike for themselves --
And blotted out the mills!


~ Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

TRANSLATION:

A mind is a terrible thing to lose.

Submitted by FreeThinke

Silverfiddle said...

And Z, please continue blogging as your heart guides you...

beamish said...

Despite the fact that my imagination is not broad enough to conjure up what it would feel like to be actually responsible for the free-willed actions taken by others, in an effort to make amends for my alleged part in making people email Z and tell her they're boycotting her blog, slitting their wrists, or whatever, I'm willing to email said posters and inform them of just how petty and pathetic they are, if Z will provide their names and email addresses.

beamish said...

He that blows the coals in quarrels that he has nothing to do with, has no right to complain if the sparks fly in his face. - Benjamin Franklin

TRANSLATION:

Go piss up a rope.

Always On Watch said...

Z said:

Beamish, I don't feel I can blog what I want to blog anymore.

I also read Beamish's reply.

I've had a few regular commenters depart from my blog because certain commenters popped in -- and, yes, even hijacked threads.

Running an open forum entails that inherent risk.

"You can't please all the people all the time."

Nobody ever said that running a blog would be easy. Sometimes, it's a pain in the ass and not worth the stress. I've been known to go into comment moderation and take a break. Frankly, when blogging is no longer enjoyable on some level, I stop blogging. So far, I haven't quit altogether.

beamish said...

AOW,

"You can't please all the people all the time."

Precisely.

To that I would add:

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

The Paultards and faux conservative entitlement junkies that Z is holding me responsible for their emailing her their letters of resignation (heh) are no longer in the kitchen to badger and insult me or other posters. Or get badgered and insulted in kind.

I'm failing to see how this isn't a positive development.

Anonymous said...

December 31, 2011

You shall not go out with haste, . . . for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard —Isaiah 52:12


Security from Yesterday.

“. . . God requires an account of what is past” (Ecclesiastes 3:15). At the end of the year we turn with eagerness to all that God has for the future, and yet anxiety is apt to arise when we remember our yesterdays. Our present enjoyment of God’s grace tends to be lessened by the memory of yesterday’s sins and blunders. But God is the God of our yesterdays, and He allows the memory of them to turn the past into a ministry of spiritual growth for our future. God reminds us of the past to protect us from a very shallow security in the present.

Security for Tomorrow.

“. . . the Lord will go before you . . . .” This is a gracious revelation— that God will send His forces out where we have failed to do so. He will keep watch so that we will not be tripped up again by the same failures, as would undoubtedly happen if He were not our “rear guard.” And God’s hand reaches back to the past, settling all the claims against our conscience.

Security for Today.

“You shall not go out with haste . . . .” As we go forth into the coming year, let it not be in the haste of impetuous, forgetful delight, nor with the quickness of impulsive thoughtlessness. But let us go out with the patient power of knowing that the God of Israel will go before us. Our yesterdays hold broken and irreversible things for us. It is true that we have lost opportunities that will never return, but God can transform this destructive anxiety into a constructive thoughtfulness for the future. Let the past rest, but let it rest in the sweet embrace of Christ.

Leave the broken, irreversible past in His hands, and step out into the invincible future with Him.

~ Oswald Chambers (My Utmost for His Highest)

Submitted by FreeThinke

beamish said...

Hey look, Ron Paul is a left-wing Euro-socialist entitlement junkie.

dmarks said...

Beamish said: "The Paultards and faux conservative entitlement junkies...."

"Retard" and variations on it is just hate speech against the mentally disabled. Check this page. What you did is similar, say, to coming up with a cute name for Bachmann fans that has "nigger" worked into it also. Sorry, I don't think it is necessary for you to bash the mentally disabled in order to make a cutsey insult against Ron Paul followers.

Sorry, I won't let this slide, just like I don't let it slide when people call our President the n-word.

I call them litterbugs, myself, after one day when the local Ron Paul group attach trash to car windhshields in my church parking lot and threw a lot more litter all over the ground.

Perhaps a better term, if you must insult Ron Paul followers, might be to take this word and call them Paultroons.

Silverfiddle said...

@ Dmarks: Paultroons

I love it! Now that's funny, I don't care who you are!

Anonymous said...

WORDS of COMFORT. WORDS to REMEMBER. WORDS to LIVE BY:

"... The ungodly are not so, but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away ..."

~ The Holy Bible - Psalms

" ... Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. ..."

~ Max Ehrmann (Desiderata - 1927)

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger, and clamor and evil speaking be out way from you with all malice. And be Ye kind one to another, tender-hearted and forgiving one another, even as God, who for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

~ T. Tertius Noble (Grieve Not the Holy Spirit of God)

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Submitted by FreeThinke