Responsible gun owners and defenders of the right to self-defense must demand the prosecution of George Zimmerman
Police in the central Florida town of Sanford have said that 28-year-old George Zimmerman says he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in self-defense during a confrontation in a gated community. Police have described Zimmerman as white; his family says he is Hispanic and not racist. (US News)Neighborhood vigilante George Zimmerman murdered young Trayvon Martin. I don't see how a reasonable person could reach any other conclusion. News outlets are blaming Florida's Stand Your Ground Law, but that's just agenda reporting.
Nothing in that law green-lights what Zimmerman did. He was flat-out wrong. Criminally wrong. You can’t just go chasing law-abiding citizens down the street at the point of a gun.
Zimmerman told a police dispatcher that the teen was "up to no good" because he was walking through his neighborhood "just walking around, looking about" with his "hands on his waistband." Does the idiot have kids? That's what teens do!
Zimmerman chased after Martin, complaining to the dispatcher, "These a******s always get away."
Hell yeah! When a gun-toting man is chasing you, you're going to try to get away. Of course Martin’s going to run. He probably thought Zimmerman was a pedophile or some kind of crazy person. He had every right to run. He also had a right to turn around and “jump” Zimmerman “from behind” (how do you get jumped from behind by someone you’re chasing? Zimmerman is lying.)
When someone chases you down and assaults you, you have a right to fight back. Too bad the kid didn’t end up kicking the dumb bastard’s head in.
Critics are calling for a repeal of Florida’s Stand Your Ground law in the wake of the killing, but that is like calling for the repeal of driving automobiles every time a pedestrian gets run down.
The perpetrator was not “standing his ground,” he was chasing down an innocent young man who was just trying to get back to his house before the second half started. If anything, had the kid killed Zimmerman, that same law would have protected him.
This is a tragedy. It is assault with a deadly weapon and murder. And Florida's Stand Your Ground law needs to stand. It will protect potential victims from assaults by people like George Zimmerman.
Update: Progressives are exploiting this tragedy (as they lamentably always do) to attempt to strike down the Florida law in question. The law did not authorize Zimmerman to chase down an innocent person. He was the aggressor in this instance. Here is the text of the law so you can judge for yourself.
(Alleged Attacker not covered under law)
(Standing your Ground)
126 comments:
It's absolutely murder...and unfortunately, this will end up as a rally for those who want to repeal the rights of self defense with firearms.
Self defense must be reasonable.
And I don't know the wording of the "stand your ground" law, but IMO anybody who would choose to unleash deadly force rather than retreat whenever possible is not a safe candidate for gun ownership.
Jez: The law was written for people to protect themselves and their property. Zimmerman wasn't doing that. He was patrolling the neighborhood and apparently passing judgement on passersby. If he's doing it with just a cell phone, great.
But he carried a gun and decided to chase people. Bad.
Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and ran after the kid. Nowhere in the law does it authorize anything like that, and if it did, it would be a stupid and unconstitutional law.
What Zimmerman did has nothing whatsoever to do with that law.
Okay, I'm behind the curve on this one.
What did that kid do to attract Zimmerman's pursuit?
Sorry to be so ignorant, but I can't keep up with the news during my work week, particularly on Tuesdays through Thursdays.
PS: What time of day or night did this happen?
Stop me if I'm wrong, but the Florida pigs never even brought Zimmerman in for questioning.
No nothing. If a gun loon feels like killing a n****r in Florida it's fine.
Jez said: "but IMO anybody who would choose to unleash deadly force rather than retreat whenever possible is not a safe candidate for gun ownership."
If there's an intruder in your house an expectation of "retreat" is not reasonable.
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Ducky said: "No nothing. If a gun loon feels like killing a n****r in Florida it's fine."
Not surprising you use the N word to bash African-Americans. Reminds me of the recent discussion of Reagan, in which you strongly implied you thought that all blacks were on welfare, and all welfare recipients were black.
Only a racist with such a belief could object at all to Reagan's criticism of welfare system abuses.
This just took the issue of Gun Control to the top of the list for those who are out to get our guns .
@Bunker: This just took the issue of Gun Control to the top of the list for those who are out to get our guns .
That's the agenda.
Ducky,
"No nothing. If a gun loon feels like killing a n****r in Florida it's fine."
Why, oh why would you seek to race-bait and inject such paranoia into this issue? You should work for the NAACP and/or be Al Sharpton's luggage carrier.
There was a heightened sense of tension in that neighborhood based on recent crimes being committed by black kids. Zimmerman was hyped-up, to be sure. He was looking for a reason to shoot someone, anyone. But to imply or hint or spin this into being racially-motivated in drivel, and you now it.
A teenage American is dead because he was shot by an idiot with a gun. (a legal gun, mind you) Now the social media freaks and chest-pounding liberals are all crying and screaming and seeking the head of Zimmerman. Leave it to the leftists to marginalize this tragedy for the sake of publicity.
Zimmerman should have been tested, IMMEDIATELY, for discharging his weapon. Immediately. Yet he was not. Does this make the local police of Sanford racist?
Too many unanswered questions and not enough answers. Before you trumpet the cliched response of raaacism, as is your leftist tendency, let us all wait for the facts to emerge more fully.
You're throwing kerosene on a smoldering ember, Ducky. Knock it off until you know better. Justice will be done, but it won't happen because your leftist screamers demand it for the sake of a good sound bite.
Great post and right on target.
I linked over at my place.
we see this happen time and time again and yet nothing seems to be done about it.
I know of the headlines in this story but not all the facts so I will wait to pass any judgment.
That said, of what I did hear is that this shooter was known as a "one-man neighborhood watch" and with the quote "These a******s always get away" I would venture to say the two involved here had a past history.
twoguys 2012 --- why would I race bait? Come on don't go dmarks the dunce here.
Let's look at the thread. Silverfiddle's PRIMARY concern is that the "stand your ground" statute will be impugned by the actions of a gun loon. I can't disagree with him but his emphasis demands a deeper look.
We KNOW from audio of the crime that Zimmerman was taking a racial pose. Everyone wants to ignore that so we have to pump up the tone a little. I call it doing a Breitfart.
How many are concerned in discovering whether Zimmerman is a bigot with a history?
How many here are asking why he wasn't given drug and alcohol testing as did the autopsy.
Why wasn't Zimmerman questioned. They take his word that an unarmed kid half his size was threatening?
Why is Silver's concern to protect the "stand your ground" statute rather than questioning how we can reasonably keep firearms out of the hands of gun loons.
This was a racial incident. Race was a motive. Don't give me the fucking tone. Get it right.
The inherent flaw in the Castle Doctrine has always been that it can be used nefariously. All assaults should be investigated the same way, without assuming self-defense any more or less than assuming anything else.
JMJ
"We KNOW from audio of the crime that Zimmerman was taking a racial pose. Everyone wants to ignore that so we have to pump up the tone a little. I call it doing a Breitbart."
Oh, Ducky. Only you know this. No one with any common sense heard what you heard in that phone call.
He sounds like a guy who is disgusted with punks robbing his neighborhood.
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"Why is Silver's concern to protect the "stand your ground" statute rather than questioning how we can reasonably keep firearms out of the hands of gun loons."
When you say 'reasonably get', what you mean is to destroy the Second Amendment. You live in an urban environment where illegal guns are used illegally by unsavory criminal elements. In the real world, far removed from such a profane and self-centered environment, guns are a right, not a curse.
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"This was a racial incident. Race was a motive. Don't give me the fucking tone. Get it right."
You cannot prove this and you know it. You want it so badly you will seek to sow that seed, but you. cannot. prove. it.
At all.
I know that bothers you, since all non-blacks are racist or so we are taught by Derrick Bell, the dead race-baiter Supreme.
Again, though, we agree on the issue of why didn't the local police test Zimmerman for alcohol or drugs since he discharged a legal weapon, taking a life. If you want to seek raaacism, why not question that.
Ducky, you've race baited before. And everyone can see that you were the only one to call the African-American victim the N-word in this discussion. Not one of the conservatives did so. Oneguy has it right.
dmarks, you have to be one of the dumbest gits on the planet.
Ducky is taking a standard progressive pose, where the race of the individuals and imputed motives must be given full emotional vent.
My concern, Ducky, it that a human being was killed and that justice be done.
My secondary concern is that inflamed leftists like you will exploit this as a pretext to deny citizens the right to defend their lives, their families lives, and their property.
@ Jersey: All assaults should be investigated the same way, without assuming self-defense any more or less than assuming anything else.
Yes! A rare agreement. Equality under the law demands no less.
The investigation is how you establish whether it was a righteous self-defense case or not.
I'll go with Christopher on this one "I know of the headlines in this story but not all the facts so I will wait to pass any judgment."
Trial will being it out.
*Bring it out
Ducky said: "dmarks, you have to be one of the dumbest gits on the planet."
Racist is as racist does.
I don't see how what Ducky is saying here is so controversial. On the other hand, this guy was calling the cops all the time about whites, blacks, and Hispanics, meandering about. He seems to be a bit of a nut.
But One Guy, you're being an apologist for this guy, and that seems kinda creepy to me.
JMJ
"On the other hand, this guy was calling the cops all the time about whites, blacks, and Hispanics, meandering about. He seems to be a bit of a nut."
And, gee, maybe race wasn't an issue, huh?
Sorry to burst the progressive bubble.
Rather than pointlessly wait for the legal system to do the right thing, why not just encourage a little vigilante justice back on the rogue vigilante?
I mean hell, I'd be crucified if I make any mention of handgun control which - though clearly not a key issue with this situation - is certainly merited in this stupid-ass nation. So, if I can't suggest that something reasonable be done, then I might as well go the other extreme and recommend we start taking care of our own damned problems ourselves. That is a big part of the weak-ass rationale behind the perceived need for people to carry concealed handguns, correct?
So, we just need for out citizenry to start clearing some of these vermin off the street permanently.
JMJ,
"But One Guy, you're being an apologist for this guy, and that seems kinda creepy to me."
Not at all, JMJ. I simply will not delve into or seek to foment that phantom spectre of raaacism just because a black teen was shot and killed by a non-black. That ain't my scene.
I also posted my two cents here:
http://twoguys2012.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/zimmerman-martin-and-a-tragic-shooting-not-racism-just-plain-old-stupidity-and-paranoia/
Please note I am encouraging rational thought based on evidence and not hyper-knee-jerking.
JMJ, a young man was shot and killed by Zimmerman. This is irrefutable fact. What is not fact, yet or otherwise, is his intent. Like I have mentioned to Ducky, I find it disturbing that the local police did NOT perform any kind of alcohol/drug testing on Zimmerman after this horrid event. Why didn't they? It stinks to high Heaven.
I surely will not and am not being an apologist for this Zimmerman fella, and my writings prove it. Please do not ever read into what I am or am not saying, JMJ. That's just detestable behavior.
Anonymous,
"So, we just need for out citizenry to start clearing some of these vermin off the street permanently."
Maybe that's what Zimmerman was thinking when he squeezed that trigger.
Ouch.
Why was Zimmerman so suspicious of Trayvon Martin? Because Martin was black? Is it really that simple and that ugly?
I do wonder what the temperature was in Sanford on February 26. I find wearing a hoodie that late in February to be strange. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was cold enough for a hoodie. Maybe Zimmerman is the biggest racial bigot on the planet.
Have any here ever seen John McWhorter's comments years ago -- about a young black man wearing a dark sweat suit in the wee hours of the morning while heading to and from a convenience store? McWhorter actually defended what we refer to as racial profiling, and McWhorter is black. He is the author of Losing the Race: Self-sabotage in Black America and has an interesting perspective on what seems to be America's never-ending problem and crisis: that of race relations.
Anyway, McWhorter has written about the killing in Sanford. See McWhorter's essay HERE.
Chris is correct, we should be making comments on the guilt and actions when the truth comes via the legal system.
As a lawyer, and regardless of not being an American one, I have witnessed time and time again a lot more facts coming out and a story-line that is different to what the media and public thinks it is.
What interests me in this case is the laws of the State of Florida which are interesting. What impact will they have on the final judgement in such cases as this.
Florida also has a law similar to that of Spain and France that allows justification for a response that equates to the level of threat "perceived". In otherwords, if one is attacked with a fist, killing is not acceptable however, being attacked with a deadly weapon can justify a deadly response. Therefore, the case for the accussed in this case will rely heavily on the assumption that he perceived the victim as using deadly force against him.
Other factors that will be important in this case that I have noticed is the recorded conversation with police despatch officers of which one requested that the accused "not persue" the person and wait for the police. That will weigh heavily against him. Also, if he was a signed member of Neighbourhood Watch, then he will be considered by the court as in a POT (Position Of Trust) and thus will be more heavily "responsible" for his actions.
A very interesting case, and that does not include the politics, social instability and emotive factors of the case. The media will, naturally, love it!
Damien Charles
Good grief! Can THIS be accurate?
The Sanford, FL violent crime rate is 25% greater than the Florida average and 117% greater than the national average.
The Sanford, FL property crime rate is 65% greater than the Florida average and 124% greater than the national average.
Overall, the Sanford, FL crime index is 60% greater than the Florida average and 123% greater than the national average.
What the hell? Is it a battle zone down there?
I think it's a fascinating study, whether we know all the facts or not...we're not on the jury and there is no down side to a discussion like this, Damien. And I think your information was interesting and thank you for it.
Thanks for bringing this up, SF...we need to discuss situations like this and consider all the angles...particularly how the "progressives" are exploiting this.
It's as if the gun pulled its own trigger, according to the Left "GUNS KILL"......no, PEOPLE kill.
sadly
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/business/how-freedom-group-became-the-gun-industrys-giant.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all
SF, have you heard about this group?
They own so many gun companies..and are buying more and more.
No Damien we should be asking why a kid with no criminal background, good student, slight build, unarmed gets gunned down and the pigs simply take the word of the shooter. NO INVESTIGATION.
That's the issue.
In heaven you get justice, on earth you get the law.
I got a kick out of Laura Ingraham. She was focusing on a minor incident in Kansas City that was a black on white assault and caused a minor injury. Local police are investigating but the rabies radio bimbette wanted to know why the national media ignored the incident.
In her mind a non lethal assault wa equivalent to a kid getting gunned down at a young age. But as AOW points out there may be elevated crime in the area so you can be to careful if you see a black kid out walking. Shoot first even if the dispatcher says to back down.
All the bigots trying to spin it.
@AOW -- I find wearing a hoodie that late in February to be strange.
----
It was raining. He put on his hood in the rain.
But regardless of weather and the fact the dispatch told you to stand down you can take a chance. Shoot the kid.
After reading about the US Army staff sergeant who shot up Afghanistan civilians, I couldn’t help noticing an irony.There's all this ya-ya that the soldier HAS TO BE brought to trial QUICKLY and then EXECUTE him.
NEVER MIND that he was possibly suffering from a traumatic brain injury. NEVER MIND that he was a staff sergeant with 11 years of service in Iraq and Afghanistan and not some snuff Pfc that was hopped up on drugs with three months in country. NEVER MIND that he was on his fourth tour of combat duty. NEVER MIND that, in all likelihood, he was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) but had never been tested for it.
Similarly, another US soldier, Major Hasan (who shot up Fort Hood while screaming, "Allah Akbar!"*) STILL hasn't stood trial. The suits and white lab coats ARE STILL debating whether Hasan is possibly insane -- even with the CLEAR EVIDENCE regarding his REAL motive: KILL as many INFIDELS as possible.
So, we have a guy in a war zone who cracks, and he's GOT TO BE executed IMMEDIATELY.
But, another US soldier, who happens to be a Muslim psychiatrist -- a doctor who was stateside in a nice, safe office all day -- murders 13 and wounds 29 of our own guys. Hasan's defense counsel is arguing that he suffered PTSD -- from LISTENING to REAL SOLDIERS who had ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED REAL COMBAT.
My aching ass!
Two and a half years later, they still haven't tried the sonofabitch.
Go figure
Stop me if I'm wrong, but the Florida pigs never...
I won't say your wrong, I will say that the 60's and 70's are long past. Other terms that have also fallen out of general usage are those such as Blue Meany, Smokey, Bear, Copper, Dicks, Flatfoot, Irish Mafia, Snipper, The Man, and the 10 code...Good Buddy.
You might try Jakes, Po-Po, 5-O, Po-9, Elroy, Popes.
Don't be so fusty.
Cheers!
Ducky, you simply can't live your life interpreting every story to suit your hatred of Conservatives....
Laura's absolutely right and tries hard to show media hypocrisy and is absolutely right on this one, of course. She and others try to point out how the media does NOT discuss black on white crime, which some of us think isn't any more civil than the child in Florida's death. We've all blogged on this numerous times......
As if Laura thinks it's a terrific idea to go around killing children of any color, is that the implication? She's as far from a "bimbette" as you can find, but it's easier for you and your ilk to kill the messenger, insult women as the left likes to do, and ignore her excellent point, this young single woman who's taken on two children to raise on her own. Why not call her a dirty name while you're at it?
Think she's excusing the Fla killing? Even you know better than that.
From the "Standing your Ground" link.
"What happened when Zimmerman caught up with Martin isn’t entirely clear. Zimmerman told police that Martin jumped him from behind. Martin’s girlfriend, who was on the phone with him while he was running, says that Martin asked “Why are you following me?”; Zimmerman replied “What are you doing here?”; and then a scuffle ensued. We do know that there was some sort of wrestling match, and that Martin landed some blows — Zimmerman was found with a bloody nose, grass stains on his shirt, and a wound on the back of his head. Toward the end of the fight a man was heard yelling, “Help! Help!” Zimmerman fired a single shot, and the screaming stopped."
I can't defend Zimmerman's actions, he seems to have done everything wrong from a Neighborhood Watch perspective. However, his actions, up to the incident appear to be entirely legal, not necessarily right, but legal.
My first thought was that he was possibly guilty of 'failure to obey', which I've learned in FL is apparently Misdemeanor Resisting without Violence. Although the law specifies that it must be an "officer". Whether that applies to a 911 operator is questionable.
Second, even if it could be applied the 911 operator never specifically told Zimmerman to stop:
"As Zimmerman can be heard huffing and puffing, the operator asks if he’s giving chase, and Zimmerman replies in the affirmative. “Okay, we don’t need you to do that,” the operator says. Zimmerman says “Okay,” but keeps running anyhow."
You may not like what Zimmerman did, but barring evidence, the police are generally powerless to act. They can't just arrest him because they feel like it, without a legal basis.
If all evidence points towards self-defense there is little to be done outside of the grand jury and probably little chance he will be convicted.
Personally, I think Zimmerman was out to teach the a******s a lesson.
What appears to be shaping up is a fight between vigilante justice and mob justice. A man who didn't know the facts shot and killed a boy and now a mob that doesn't know the facts wants to hang him.
Cheers!
Take a walk Finntann ... let's review the militarization of the police, Bloomberg's statement that the NYPD is his private army and the behavior of the pigs at occupy sites.
Now the occupy camps may have damaged your perfect sense of order so I assume you approve.
Bad boy, what you gonna do when they come for you and they got way heavier steel. But as long as you feel comfortable and safe you think your free. Wimp.
Doesn't matter Finntann, THERE WAS NO INVESTIGATION. Kid got shot down and NO INVESTIGATION. Are you fucking thick?
So answer me this question... should police arrest people without an investigation? On what? Whim?
Sure they could have taken him into custody, but lacking the evidence to arrest him in the first place they would have had to release him anyway.
I am not defending Zimmerman or the Sanford PD, I don't have the necessary facts... unlike you who are willing to condemn without them.
All you have to work with are assumptions, your own bias and prejudices, and anectdotal stories you've heard or read in the news... unless that is you were hiding in the bushes watching this all go down.
You have no more evidence than the Sanford police do. The fact that he shot the kid is not in dispute. If you have any evidence beyond your own assumptions, please enlighten us, otherwise I'm forced to ask you the same question...
Are you fucking thick?
One Guy, you are making the same sort of assumption your are accusing Ducky of. Right? How do you know what the guy's motive was? A lot of people swear they hear him make a racial epithet under his breath on the phone at the time. And what did he mean by "they"? There is cause for concern here, and any "rational" person would at least acknowledge that.
...
As for the city of Sanford, I travel there regularly. It is an old, worn, northern-style city in appearance. It is noticeably divided by various demographics, geographically. The city was a military center for many years, but when the military left, the town fell into disrepair and economic troubles. Its been struggling ever since.
JMJ
"And what did he mean by "they"?"
Well given the grammatical construction of the sentence, they would refer to "these assholes"
"Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse."
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
Given the multiple unintelligible responses in which a racial ephitet would not make any sense contextually, as in "that's my truck...unitelligible". There is no rational reason to believe any of the unintelligble remarks are racial in nature, given the rest of the conversation.
The most likely where a racial ephitet could occur is:
"The back entrance...F'ing (unintelligible), and could easily be "assholes" which was stated three comments prior.
I have seen nothing in any of the reporting indicating Zimmerman was a racist, and no credible witness has have emerged to indicate he is.
Cheers!
Aside from your dislike of the police, what does:
"let's review the militarization of the police, Bloomberg's statement that the NYPD is his private army and the behavior of the pigs at occupy sites"
Have to do with this thread?
I try not to stereotype anyone, black, white, or blue. There are good cops and bad cops, good departments and bad departments (institutionally speaking). But I'll say this, I've known perhaps over a dozen cops over my lifetime, some of them that were friends. The majority were all type-A personalities with authority and control issues. Now whether the job attracts that type or creates that type, I can't say.
Cheers!
Finntann
The most likely where a racial epithet could occur is:
"The back entrance...F'ing (unintelligible), and could easily be "assholes" which was stated three comments prior."
I just listened to that segment unedited that was played on Current TV's Young Turks
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/currents-the-young-turks-airs-alleged-%E2%80%98fcking-cns%E2%80%99-trayvon-martin-911-call-uncensored/
What I hear is unequivocally "F...ing coons." It's said in a whisper but it's clearly audible. As near as I can tell this idiot did everything wrong, even if he was "Town Watch", and I'm baffled why he didn't get locked up at the time. Ultimately a decision to prosecute lies not with the police but with the states attorney. I can't imagine this moron getting away. The chief sponsor of Florida's 'castle' law insists it wouldn't apply here
JMJ,
"A lot of people swear they hear him make a racial epithet under his breath on the phone at the time."
Who are these people? Do you have a link for me and others to see this for ourselves?
Let me ask you, JMJ: Have you heard the tapes? If so, what do you hear Zimmerman saying?
Not a loaded question, but a serious inquiry, JMJ. Please tell me and others here what it is YOU heard Zimmerman say.
@One Guy
Link just above your last post. Scroll down the page to the video
The trouble here comes from this new view of the Castle Doctrine as essentially mobile. That you are your own mobile castle wherever you go. It's like Peter and the Rock, but Jesus wasn't endorsing an armed vigilante church there. Some of these laws are very poorly worded, too, which is no surprise, as they come from right wing legislators who lack the capacity to imagine the consequences.
These are the same geniuses who demand prayer in school and other public institutions - in a country with probably a thousand sects among many religions.
They are people who don't look at the big picture.
Making the Castle Doctrine mobile is stupid, and we see right here and example of why. This shooter might just get away with killing someone in the throes of paranoid psychoses, because these right wing geniuses, who write these ill-conceived, ill-planned, ill-written vengeance laws can't see the obvious consequences.
You conservative should be careful when you hear these "conservative" legislators telling you to "be afraid." Most of the time, they're just trying to boil your blood to keep your mind off the real issues.
JMJ
This shooting is an outrage regardless of what color anyone is. What nobody is saying here is that Zimmerman is Hispanic but the media is losing what the real tragedy is only because they want him to be white.
It's like they wanted Jared Laughner to be associated with the Tea Party but they settled for blaming Sarah Palin.
It's a shame that the media are the ones who can't let a nation mourn because they have an underlying agenda. And that is what is keeping people from the "real issues".
They did it with Katrina too. People were trying to help and donate and mourn that tragedy but the media had to politicize it and make it into a race issue.
In the meantime a 6 year old girl gets killed in Chicago for merely playing in front of her home by a gang banging stray bullet. 40 people in less that 3 days got shot there and the media ignores that problem. Why is that? That is a huge problem and a very dangerous one.
The little girls' mother couldn't contain herself. She said these aren't even teenagers shooting these are adults and it is a normal way of life there and that is accepted as normal and the media doesn't even report it because they can't make it into a "racist" issue but they would be forced to make it a "race" issue. And that just shows they really don't care about the tragedy as much as they care about their agenda.
viburnum,
Got it, thanks!
JMJ: "Making the Castle Doctrine mobile is stupid..."
Is your life, or your family's, any less in danger in a car jacking than a home invasion? Is your right of self defense any less inherent on a public street than in your back yard?
One moron acting outside the limits of the law does not invalidate the principle. If we repealed every law that's passed simply because it's been transgressed even you would be in the market for a gun.
Jersey "Making the Castle Doctrine mobile is stupid"
Uh...what makes you think I am under any legal or moral obligation to run away from you?
The right of self defense rests in the person, not the dwelling.
If confronted on the street, alone, after dark, the last thing I'm going to do is turn my back to you.
A free man always has the right to defend himself. The fact that someone may abuse that right doesn't lessen my rights. By your reasoning, if the illegal use of a gun is justification for outlawing guns, the number of illegal abortions performed is justification for outlawing abortions.
No? I didn't think so.
Cheers!
Having listened to Viburnum's posted clip, I have to concede that the probability that Zimmerman was racially motivated is up in the high 90th percentile.
That said, neither racism nor hate is a crime. You still need to prove the primary offense first. I can be the grand poobah of the KKK and the fact that I shoot a black man on the street doesn't automatically make me guilty.
Innocent until proven guilty! The fact he was armed, racially motivated, and looking for trouble doesn't mean guilty, it provides motive. It is still the responsibility of the state to prove that he wasn't defending himself.
Granted, as juror number one I would be inclined to convict given what I know about the case so far. But we know little outside of what is reported. Zimmerman had a bloody nose, a wound on the back of the head, and grass stains on his clothes.
The previous report stated:
Martin asked “Why are you following me?”; Zimmerman replied “What are you doing here?”; and then a scuffle ensued.
Who started the scuffle is unknown.
If Martin started the fight, it was indeed legitimately self-defense, since Zimmerman has not been demonstrated to have done anything illegal. I can drive down the street, I can follow you if I wish...all legal, I can even ask "what are you doing here".
There is enough data to warrant an investigation, and despite what Ducky claims, I haven't seen anything indicating that there was no investigation under way or that the case was closed.
All I'm saying is absent evidence, none of us are legitimately capable of judgement, and all we have so far is an angry mob agitated by the superficial facts of the case.
Duck,
I phoned The Merry Widow last night to try to find out details that we might not have heard. As you know, she lives in Florida. She was aware of this terrible event before any of the rest of us hear about it.
She said that Zimmerman may not have said "coon" after all.
She also said that Martin didn't have the hoodie on at first, but rather put up the hoodie when he saw Zimmerman looking at him.
TMW mentioned something about Zimmerman's being recently mugged -- or some such. I don't quite recall what TMW said in that regard as caregiving tasks interrupted our conversation.
Anyway, I'm posting the above because I hadn't heard some of the information before my conversation with TMW.
i will repeat my advice.
it is incorrect to discuss what 'maybe' the facts and to assume or make judgements either way, what he may or may not have said and even what he did say in public. it is 'evidence', sworn or documented statements, witness testimonies' and physical facts that will determine what happened.
Sure, discuss the law, the system and implications. just avoid assuming facts that are not yet detrmined. the worst phrase in law is 'i heard that.... '.
D Charles
i will repeat my advice.
it is incorrect to discuss what 'maybe' the facts and to assume or make judgements either way, what he may or may not have said and even what he did say in public. it is 'evidence', sworn or documented statements, witness testimonies' and physical facts that will determine what happened.
Sure, discuss the law, the system and implications. just avoid assuming facts that are not yet detrmined. the worst phrase in law is 'i heard that.... '.
D Charles
Jersey: I've given you a link to the statute. What part of it gives a person the right to chase down, fight and kill someone for no other reason than they look suspicious?
Silverfiddle,
You are absolutely correct about the statute.
Guys,
We all already have the right to defend ourselves, or even someone else. We don't need special laws for that. When we make special laws for that, we invite this sort of trouble. Not seeing that shows the lack of foresight among right wing legislators and the voters they pander to.
JMJ
You didn't answer my question, Jersey. I'll try again, what part of the law authorized Zimmerman do do what he did?
And Jersey, try shooting a home invader in New York City. They and other big cities, where armed criminals run around with impunity, criminalize home defense, especially if, God forbid, the intruder you shoot turns out to be unarmed.
So you are right in principle. We all have the natural right to defend ourselves and our property, but the law is an ass and doesn't always see it that way. That is a progressive development, btw, not a "rightwing" one.
Now, tell us where in that statute makes Zimmerman right.
As I watched the coverage of the rally last night and saw all those thousands of people, a thought popped into my head.....where's the outrage over all those people that died in Chicago?
Ducky, I'm a Floridian, you haven't a clue as to what is happening here!
I heard bits and pieces of this story and it's horrible that a young man had to die due to someone's over-imaginative and paranoid mentality that kids are bad?
Silver, as you know I live in a very dangerous neighborhood, we have been robbed, the two houses across our house had drive-by shootings, drug arrests, etc.
And even though, I know we do have some bad apples, kids, in this neighborhood most are just minding their own business, while sadly, their pants are hanging around their knees. Other than a really bad choice in style, most kids aren't bad. They just get stereotyped by the way the dress.
I am curious of how the boy was dressed and if that had anything to do with the assault?
If Liberals really wanted stricter gun laws it would be very easy to get them passed.
Simply set up a paid for by private donations program to get every black person in the USA who graduates high school down to a firing range for the required training, and walk them through the process of getting a concealed weapons permit.
How long do you think this would happen, with a website saying "112,332 permits issued to date and counting", before the Republicans and the Tea Party were DEMANDING strict gun laws?
Great idea Ducky! I just sent it off to the membership committee of the NRA, giving you full credit of course.
Another 112,332 ( and counting ) supporters of the 2nd Amendment will be wonderful and America will be a much safer place.
I don't know much about this case, if the fellow did the wrong thing, then he should face court and the full force of the law.
I'm not so sure that the public and more importantly the media should be trying the fellow and deciding whether he's a murderer or not.
Why not Ducky, it's almost what the Swiss do with compulsory military service.
All for it.
You've been blinded by your indoctrination into thinking all conservatives are racist.
It's a stupid law too. Thanks Jeb! Thanks once again to the fear mongering GOP!
Liberalman: Since none of the other liberal smart guys can answer this question, I'll pose it to you as well:
Which part of that law permitted Zimmerman to chase that kid down and kill him? Put up or shut up.
It wasn't permitted.
The point here is that people care more about preserving the law than they do a young boys life.
Just ask someone if the kid in the hoodie threatened them and that's the end of the investigation.
Ducky,
Check this:
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Robert A. Heinlein
I am all for having each and every capable American carrying a firearm. It is a Constitutional right. Convicts and those with mental disorders, ie, leftists, need not apply. (Oh, come on...I'm just kidding. We'll let the convicts have guns again. Yeesh.)
@ Ducky: The point here is that people care more about preserving the law than they do a young boys life.
a stunning confession, but true. The left only cares about exploiting this for political gain, the kid's death is just a sideshow.
A young black man was gunned down in a hail of bullets yesterday in Denver, in front of a school.
Where's the outrage? Where's Jesse Jackass and Reverend Al Simpleton?
Where are the outraged protesters?
An idiot cop wannabe guns down an innocent kid, and the left immediately injected this 2005 law into the national bloodstream. What a propaganda coup. The left has always hated that law because the NRA sponsored it and it expands personal liberty. Smart agitators were just waiting for such an opportunity.
Spare me your crocodile tears. The long march continues, and you're goosestepping extra high.
JMJ: "We all already have the right to defend ourselves, or even someone else. We don't need special laws for that. "
When people defending themselves and others were charged and tried for homicide and manslaughter or sued for wrongful death, or excessive use of force, it does take spelling it out for overzealous prosecutors, lawyers, and anti gun activists.
Your right to defend yourself, your family, and your property is unequivocal, and inalienable.
"Not seeing that shows the lack of foresight among right wing legislators and the voters they pander to."
Pennsylvania's version passed last June with overwhelming bipartisan support. The House version passed by a 164 to 37 margin. The Senate bill passed 43-4.
The current make up of the House is 112 R -91 D , the Senate 30 R -20 D
Jersey said: ""Not seeing that shows the lack of foresight among right wing legislators and the voters they pander to."
I am sure glad there are some people like this, the supposed "right wing legislators", who pander to the public interest and the welfare, well being, and safety of the general public.
Trayvon's murder is a tragedy. The police handling of the situation after the fact was pathetic. The Chief of Police was clueless.
Sickening really. As to pandering... let all look in the mirror lest we lose all credibility.
I'm still trying to figure out if Obama saying "And when I think about this boy, I think about my own kids" means he's raising his kids to burglarize Florida neighborhoods.
Obama has politicized the slaying of Martin.
Another side of Trayvon Martin?
THIS was news to me. Obama hasn't said a word about this, has he?
AOW: Progressives are exploiting the race angle and the "Stand your Ground Law" angle, which tells us much about them.
I don't care if Martin was a full-fledged gang member. You cannot just go chasing people and shooting them.
As I said earlier, unless Martin was absconding with a baby or running towards someone brandishing a weapon, Zimmerman was wrong. Criminally so.
Silverfiddle,
I'm reserving forming my opinion until the grand jury verdict comes down.
The politicizing of this event has me stepping back and waiting.
Just my two cents.
I understand. I still think Zimmerman is an idiot who makes all gun owners look bad.
Progressives have done an excellent job exploiting this, but that doesn't take Zimmerman off the hook.
Beamish shut the fuck up you stinking butt nugget.
The kid was visiting someone in the neighborhood and went to the store.
AOW, I was taking some photos in an isolated area. I don't walk around strapped so I wasn't carrying steel.
I heard someone walk up and say "excuse me". It was a black guy, African as it turned out.
Now there I was in an isolated area with a black guy and no gun. Turns out he wanted me to take his picture.
I did. I showed him the photo in the viewer and asked if he had an e-mail address so that I could send him a jpeg.
I suspect you or the pig Beamish would have shot him.
I have to say something in on this!! What happended was wrong and it appears that this young man was followed in the evening by a legally armed person.
There is a young inocent man that lost his life and God rest his soul. I think the Stand Your Ground Law is good one but not when it used to justify murder!!
Muder is Murder!!!
Let the Law do there job!!!
RR
I like this from AOW, "What did that kid do to attract Zimmerman's pursuit?"
He's... you know...
But, AOW makes it clear his view
"I don't know what the truth is about this incident.
But I DO know that the photo of Martin in this post needs to go viral.
If it turns out that the killing of Martin was something other than what the media and others are now screaming about Obama is going to have egg all over his face. Maybe he'll call for another beer summit?"
AOW, you are a sick bigot. The picture he's referring to is one of Martin well, I'm sure you can find it on Right-Wing blogs because Martin is black and every conservative knows about them...
Plus, you are just an evil human AOW, wishing this murder can be used to bring down Obama. How about some compassion for the young man's family?
But, I know how impossible that is for Right-Wingers when they think they can harm President Obama. All decent is left aside...
If the kid were white, the racists on the left wouldn't be making a big deal about it at all.
dmarks, if the kid were white the bigots on the right would be demanding he should have had access to a handgun.
Wow. Ducky encountered a black man in an isolated area and didn't shoot him in the face.
Congratulations Ducky! You get the Progressive Pat on the Head Award!
It is telling that you do not realize how condescending and cloying your stupid story was.
How long do you think this would happen, with a website saying "112,332 permits issued to date and counting", before the Republicans and the Tea Party were DEMANDING strict gun laws?
The first refuge of a condescending leftist...
racism.
Try never, twinky. In fact, I welcome it. I would love to see you on the rifle range.
Ducky's here said...
Beamish shut the fuck up you stinking butt nugget.
Lot's of experience there?
Figures...
so I wasn't carrying steel.
Said it before. Compensation.
Typical.
Anger, racism and feelings of inadeqacy. Old hippies are rather pathetic. Funny, but pathetic.
And...Oh, wow....
looks like this whole bruhaha may be a bonafide case of justifiable self-defense.
After all the usual suspects have gone into full-blown racemode, feckless politicians bending each other over to be more politically correct than the last and the most devisive posuer clown-in-chief makes some banal refererence to imagined kinship, because,
...that's all he knows.
Witness the empty left. Organ Monkeys dancing to an incoherent mass of noise.
Heh.....gotta get a laugh in for the day. The individual coming forward as a witness has more intestinal fortitude than entire left combined and, it would appear, quite a few who lean right.
Beamish shut the fuck up you stinking butt nugget.
Answer the question, lefty. Why is Obama raising his kids to burglarize Florida neighborhoods?
The kid was visiting someone in the neighborhood and went to the store.
And along the way, he jumped Zimmerman from behind, according to an eyewitness.
Now there I was in an isolated area with a black guy and no gun. Turns out he wanted me to take his picture.
I did. I showed him the photo in the viewer and asked if he had an e-mail address so that I could send him a jpeg.
I suspect you or the pig Beamish would have shot him.
You got the wrong guy, Ducky. My family has a history of having their property shot up and firebombed by your fellow left-wing New Deal-snarfing DemoKKKrats for working to get black people jobs and registered to vote in 1960s Birmingham, Alabama. You know, when your family fled making a stand during the Civil Rights movement. I guess your daddy didn't want to get his skirt dirty, huh?
Don't condescend to me about fighting racism, you left-wing poseur.
HOLD.
THE.
PHONE.
Duck,
I suspect you...would have shot him.
The hell I would have!
I've stated my views on race relations many times, and never have those views including doing anything bad to anyone of a different race. Period.
You know what, Duck? You think that because I grew up and live in the South (if Northern Virginia can even BE called "The South") that I automatically hate those of other races. You are the bigot in that regard.
And one more thing....Anyone who knows how to handle a firearm property also knows that you don't fire without provocation. Turning and firing in the situation you described would be murder.
Grunge_e_Gene,
you are just an evil human AOW, wishing this murder can be used to bring down Obama
You don't know me.
I hope no such thing.
However, Obama overstepped the line as executive to automatically come down on the side of Martin before the facts are in, a trial held, and a verdict reached. Obama did the same in 2009 when he came down on the side of the professor in Cambridge; once the facts were in, Obama had to apologize via a "beer summit."
In fact, if Zimmerman did murder Martin, now the jury pool is poisoned because of Obama's statement. A good defense attorney will see to it that Zimmerman doesn't serve a day.
If -- and I'm saying IF -- it does turn out that Zimmerman acted in self-defense, then there is a double tragedy: the death of Martin and the ruination of Zimmerman -- or conviction by a jury in spite of unimpeachable evidence to the contrary. With all the hoopla and rush to judgment right now, justice cannot be served.
I read yesterday that the New Black Panthers now have a $10,000 on Zimmerman's head.
Meanwhile, the kid in Kansas City -- the WHITE kid set upon and set fire by two blacks after a school lesson about how blacks were lynched in the South decades ago -- gets little coverage or sympathy from the media.
Gingrich's statement about what Obama said:
What the president said, in a sense, is disgraceful. It’s not a question of who that young man looked like. Any young American of any ethnic background should be safe, period. We should all be horrified no matter what the ethnic background.
Is the president suggesting that if it had been a white who had been shot, that would be OK because it didn’t look like him. That’s just nonsense dividing this country up. It is a tragedy this young man was shot. It would have been a tragedy if he had been Puerto Rican or Cuban or if he had been white or if he had been Asian American of if he’d been a Native American. At some point, we ought to talk about being Americans. When things go wrong to an American, it is sad for all Americans. Trying to turn it into a racial issue is fundamentally wrong. I really find it appalling.
Zimmerman might not be classified as white by some, BTW.
I agree we need more facts, which is what the grand jury is supposed to establish. Still, I don't see how someone can claim self-defense when they started it by stalking and then chasing the person they killed.
You know what, Duck? You think that because I grew up and live in the South (if Northern Virginia can even BE called "The South") that I automatically hate those of other races. You are the bigot in that regard.
-------
I was born in Alabama when dad was working at Redstone arsenal in Huntsville.
I am eternally grateful that he returned home to Boston when I was young.
Duck,
I can tell from you accent that you grew up in Massachusetts.
Whatever.
I don't go around shooting people. In fact, I've drawn on somebody only twice in my life. None of those people on whom I had to draw were black.
Silverfiddle,
I don't see how someone can claim self-defense when they started it by stalking and then chasing the person they killed.
I agree with that.
But I've heard that Zimmerman stopped pursuit and was himself chased and attacked. Supposedly, those are the reasons the Sanford Police Department didn't charge Zimmerman. SUPPOSEDLY.
I haven't listened to the 911 tapes in full, but I think they're on the web.
Obama made a legal error by inserting himself into this matter. I recall something about President Nixon and Charles Manson. Details <a href="http://law.jrank.org/pages/3202/Charles-Manson-Trial-1970-71-Case-Draws-Presidential-Remark.html</a>HERE</a>.
Meanwhile, the kid in Kansas City -- the WHITE kid set upon and set fire by two blacks after a school lesson about how blacks were lynched in the South decades ago -- gets little coverage or sympathy from the media.
I'm guessing that that school lesson didn't include that the lynchers were Democrats or that the Progressive leftist Democrat President Woodrow Wilson had used federal money to revitalize and reconstitute the Ku Klux Klan.
My own NEA-propagandized 4th grade Alabama history teacher (1979) tried to teach that Bull Connor was a Republican. And she was alive, in Birmingham, during the firehosings.
Bull Connor died as a member of the Democratic Party.
I was born in Alabama when dad was working at Redstone arsenal in Huntsville.
I am eternally grateful that he returned home to Boston when I was young
I'd think it'd be an eternal shame. He never got to take you to a beach not polluted by medical waste.
Alabama:
- 5 nuclear power stations
- trains astronauts for space flight
- environmentally pristine and virtually undamaged ecosystem
Massachussetts:
- gay marriage
Did George Zimmerman break his own nose and bust up his own face and then roll around on the ground to put grass stains on the back of his shirt and head?
No Hack. That probably happened in the scuffle with the kid. A scuffle Zimmerman invited by pursuing him.
A scuffle Zimmerman invited by pursuing him.
I see.
And of course, the thug gangsta wannabe Treyvon Martin was invited into that gated community by the nice houses to burglarize. Or maybe it was the good looking women to rape.
When you start to sound like Ron Paul damning America for defending its interests...
Beamish: Your comment it idiotic. People who chase down other people get what they deserve.
If I'm walking through your neighborhood after dark and you chase me down, you're going to get more than a bump on the head.
I'd think it'd be an eternal shame. He never got to take you to a beach not polluted by medical waste.
---------
The family used to rent a cottage on the beach in the great state of Maine.
Very gun friendly there also.
Locally I can go to Revere, Lynn or Marblehead. Not a problem.
I don't go around shooting people. In fact, I've drawn on somebody only twice in my life.
----------
Heck, I had to get out of the car and ask for directions in East St. Louis and I wasn't even strapped. No problem.
Duck,
The two times I drew on someone was at home: once as a 12-year-old home-alone kid (Those Jehovah's Witnesses just wouldn't leave, and they were turning the door handle) and one as a 40-something woman when a man in a black hoodie was rummaging through my shed (turned out to be a friend of Mr. AOW's and he came here to fetch some automotive tools).
Obviously, I didn't fire the weapon either time.
Silverfiddle,
See the addendum to my 2nd post today.
Silverfiddle,
That probably happened in the scuffle with the kid.
Maybe.
I'd go so far as to say "probably."
However, Zimmerman could also have been jumped from behind. Did Zimmerman turn away and head back to his vehicle? I don't know. Who DOES know?
I need to listen to those 911 tapes, I guess.
SEEN at GEEEEEZ:
beamish said...
You can hear the recored 911 calls at the Treyvon Martin article on Wikipedia.
Treyvon Martin was casing houses and entering and stopping in people's yards in a gated community neighborhood he did not live in.
He attacked the neighborhood watch commander who was monitoring his behavior and tracking his movements through people's yards.
This was not a sidewalk shooting. Treyvon Martin died in the back yard of a house he was casing out to burglarize either then or later, after attacking a witness to his suspicious behavior who turned out to be armed.
This shooting is a tragedy that can only by rectified by putting George Zimmerman's face on Mount Rushmore.
March 26, 2012 2:05 AM
If I'm walking through your neighborhood after dark and you chase me down, you're going to get more than a bump on the head.
Not if you're stopping in people's yards (not the sidewalk) and examining their doors and windows. In my neighbor, someone in one of those houses will come out and confront you if they don't just shoot you on sight.
Enough of this "Treyvon Martin never got in trouble" nonsense.
Treyvon Martin was in Sanford staying with his father's girlfriend because he was suspended from school for two weeks for breaking into an unauthorized area of the school.
Heck, I had to get out of the car and ask for directions in East St. Louis and I wasn't even strapped. No problem.
What's so dangerous about East St. Louis?
Ducky enjoys featuring the stereotypical in his comments. In some other blog post comment he probably used "Compton" or "South Side of Chicago" instead.
East St. Louis, IL is a paradise compared to St. Louis, MO.
Why?
ESL has a city government in name only, that doesn't harass its citizens even a fraction as much as St. Louis does. ;)
If some unauthorized, suspicious-looking person is walking around in my yard, plucking at my bushes, manhandling my heat pump, or peeping in at my windows, he's liable to get a face -- or an ass -- full of lead.
Unfortunately I live in a place where I am compelled to belong to a Neighborhood Association. A past president was just like this Zimmerman fellow in that she was known to prowl around in peoples' back and side yards searching out "violations" of our by-laws.
In other words she was a bitch on wheels and a born troublemaker. It's a wonder she never did get shot or bludgeoned to death. Plenty of people would not have mourned her passing, I can tell you that.
Luckily for us all she moved away, and that settled that.
The only thing worse than a thug is a zealously officious busybody.
DEATH to AGGRESSORS of ALL stripes!
~ FreeThinke
There was a Neighborhood Association here, but it became disbanded when the fine print said the agreement had to be renewed, and it never was. My neighborhood's version of the code Nazi was fuming mad when there was a call to make a new compact and virtually everyone expressed their disinterest in doing so by not even showing up to the called meeting.
I have to say that I am disappointed in this post. From the beginning I was skeptical of the news reports, based on Trayvon's parents assertions. I immediately looked for credible information and found it at the Orlando Sentinel, among other places. Witness testimony was available from the beginning, yet most people allowed their news to be spoon fed to them. Including you.
You took the propaganda and ran with it. I expected so much more from you.
We still don't know what happened. I based my comments on the 911 recording where Zimmerman is going after Martin, pursuing him, and the dispatcher says not to.
Citizens do not have the right to chase down other citizens except in special circumstances, and this wasn't one of them.
If Zimmerman chased that kid down, he is at least guilty of wrongful death.
If on the other hand Zimmerman was just standing there and the kid jumped him, then it was a righteous shoot.
Also Divine (I'm adding this in because I respect your opinion), anyone who shoots and kills a perp defending his life, property or the lives of his family does himself and society a great service.
A gun owner who chases someone down, forces a confrontation and then shoots them does a grave disservice to our 2nd Amendment rights.
Once the facts are established, I will adjust my judgement based upon that criteria.
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